D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 monk...lawful = disciplined?

[Dandu]

None of which has anything to do with "following a path I personally find worthwhile."

Except for the part where, you know, obeying the master comes into play, because the transmission of enlightenment from individual to individual is a fundamental part of Zen.

There's also the part where you need discipline in order to adhere to the meditation regimes and, if you choose to do so, asceticism.

If you ask me, Zen does not come off as chaotic by DnD standards.

Before you start talking about how chaotic characters can engage in lawful behavior, please take into consideration that lawful characters can engage in chaotic behavior, and that flexability, open mindedness, and following a path you personally find worthwhile are not exclusive to one alignment.

 

[coyote6]

FWIW, I think the original monk class was written because someone wanted to play Remo Williams in D&D. If you go through the monk's original class features, they compare remarkably well to the various abilities Remo learns through the various Destroyer books. Add a sprinkling of Kwai Chang Caine, and I think you're there.

So, monks are lawful because Chiun and Master Po were strict teachers.

 

[hamishspence]

Just as a point of reference, the Rules Cyclopedia has only Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic alignments, but the spells Detect Evil and Protection From Evil, not Law/Chaos.

It actually says in the spell descriptions that they detect hostility, not alignment.

In Eric Holmes Basic D&D though- there were 5 alignments (LG, CG, N, LE, CE)

And again, Detect Evil detected hostiles, only Know Alignment detected alignment.

 

[pawsplay]

Except for the part where, you know, obeying the master comes into play, because the transmission of enlightenment from individual to individual is a fundamental part of Zen.

Actually, sudden enlightenment is a fundamental of Zen. Obedience to a master is mainly an educational process, concerned not a little with the diminishment of the false self.

There's also the part where you need discipline in order to adhere to the meditation regimes and, if you choose to do so, asceticism.

Which brings us back to the OP. Discipline is neither lawful nor chaotic. Is a LN monk more disciplined than a CG wizard?

 

[Dandu]

Actually, sudden enlightenment is a fundamental of Zen. Obedience to a master is mainly an educational process, concerned not a little with the diminishment of the false self.

Wikipedia, on Zen:
"Because the Zen tradition emphasizes direct communication over scriptural study, the Zen teacher has traditionally played a central role. Generally speaking, a Zen teacher is a person ordained in any tradition of Zen to teach the Dharma, guide students in meditation, and perform rituals. An important concept for all Zen sects is the notion of dharma transmission: the claim of a line of authority that goes back to Śākyamuni Buddha via the teachings of each successive master to each successive student. "

Which brings us back to the OP. Discipline is neither lawful nor chaotic.

I see discipline as lawful behavior due to the reliability aspect.

 

[Thurbane]

What do you think?

I think that D&D's 9 place alignment system translates exceedingly poorly into real world examples...

 

[pawsplay]

I see discipline as lawful behavior due to the reliability aspect.

Not only is this unsupported in the rules, but it seems illogical and contradictory. If that were true, Lawful groups would have higher skill ratings than Chaotics, which does not appear to be true from the monsters and societies represented in the core books. Discipline can mean order if used in a different sense, literally, meaning adherence to a study. In the sense of self-discipline, though, I see nothing indicating that Lawful characters have more self-control than Chaotic ones. Surely, dedicated chaotic characters must strive just as hard to express their ideals.

Rising each day at 4:00 to do meditations is orderly and hence has some Lawful qualities. But then making a pilgrimage to somewhere distant to have your mind opened by new teachings is flexibility and hence has some Chaotic aspects. Both a lawful Paladin and a chaotic Barbarian are unflinching warriors; what distinguishes a Paladin's self-control from the barbarian's? Does a Lawful human have an easier time learning the ways of a Chaotic religion than a Chaotic one does joining a Lawful sect? Can a Lawful dwarf become a more successful Chaotic cleric by exercising his self-control? Is a Lawful painter a more dedicated artist?

 

[Dandu]

Not only is this unsupported in the rules, but it seems illogical and contradictory.

Coming from you? Priceless.

For everything else, there's Mastercard.

Both a lawful Paladin and a chaotic Barbarian are unflinching warriors; what distinguishes a Paladin's self-control from the barbarian's?

Appearently, DnD would have you believe that it starts with an "r", ends with an "age".

 

[rusty2667]

DnD would have you believe that it starts with an "r", ends with an "age".

Isn't the fact that rage is an "at will" ability make it matter of discipline? A barbarian can choose not to use this ability even in the most desperate of circumstances (probably to his/her detriment ).

 

[Dandu]

Isn't the fact that rage is an "at will" ability make it matter of discipline? A barbarian can choose not to use this ability even in the most desperate of circumstances (probably to his/her detriment ).

Barbarians lose the ability to rage once they become lawful.