3e, DMs, and Inferred Player Power

Rasyr said:
First off, it tries to make other games sound as if they are "Player vs GM". It also makes it sound like other games do not give players choices. Not to mention the fact that it implies, through the mis-statements about other systems, that DMs in D&D do not (or should not) have any power (or only a limited amount of power) over players, or even the games that they run. It also implies that a GM having "any" sort of power over the players of a game (apparently in regard with player choices) is to be considered a bad thing. Or is he attempting to imply that D&D is for power-gamers cause D&D allows them all the choices they want (as opposed choices available due to setting/game).

Rasyr, it would be a mistake to assume that Mearls agrees with the above point of view, as he notes in his reply, but rather it's what he thinks why more MMORPG players are getting attracted to D&D. And I can totally agree with the statement. From the POV of a solely computer RPG player, it WOULD seem undesirable to have a DM as arbitrary arbiter, rather than a clearly defined massive ruleset, and therefore, giving the players more power through hard rules is why they might find D&D more attractive than other systems.


Firelance said:
Good grief, people are talking about the loss of DM power like it's a bad thing :cool:. Like I said in der_kluge's epiphany thread:
[snip]
And if the quote from Mike Mearls is correct, fewer players are leaving the game. You might not like the implication that giving the players more power means that more people want to be play the game, but I think almost everyone will agree that having more players around is a good thing.

The problem with the six points you made is that it's fine as long as #4 and #5 actually come true. But what I see happening is that if the DM is not vested with SOME power of arbitration, rather than just being a "glorified computer that sets up the world and lets the players run", then roleplay is de-emphasized, and all you've got is a CRPG on paper, and the type of gaming that I used to do, and have no interest in going back to. I offer Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online as the ultimate examples of what happens when the DM and the social aspects are removed from the equation; in every one of them, play other than power-accumulation is non-existent, and why I quit half of them, and refuse to play in the other half.

Finally, having more players around IS a good thing, but it's a double edged sword, when they have little to no experience with play styles other than the ones mentioned above. It changes the hobby in very significant ways, and while D&D will continue, at that point it's no longer an RPG, it's just a way to play the computer game when your ISP is having problems. :)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Possibly one way to encourage roleplaying, among people who are only famiiar with computer games, is to have someone important to a character interact with the party. The more experienced players can model ways of interacting with NPCs, and a DM can suggest that the new player consider how he would interact with this NPC in the real world. The new player may intially roleplay a version of himself, but may begin to expand his range.

I do agree that a good DM uses judgement in addition to any rules set. I think there has to be some balance between rules and sound judgement, as well as a need for some spontaniety in play.

A few good movies might also help provide some inspiration as well. This might work out quite well, as the movies can be a touchstone for the new players.
 

That said, I do believe the current climate of the game is limiting imagination. Like Henry said, players brought up only under the new system tend to see the rules as more credible than DM arbitration. If a DM makes an antithetical call or chooses not to use a newly published option/rule, it may appear as if they know "better" than the professional designers at Wizards. Someone else mentioned needing real balancing guidelines. I'm sure Wizards has these developed even though much of it is an art, as they say. But there are definite reasons why they do not release these spreadsheets and rules of thumb. Having the best balanced rules is a big selling points in an OGL market. Unfortunately, the idea "only Wizards has extensively balanced rules" contributes to the mindset of DM's not being the preferred arbiter of what is allowed.

Actually, I would disagree with this slightly. It's not that Wizards has the only balanced rules, but, rather, there are so many DM's out there who couldn't find their bottom with both hands and a flashlight. Arbitrary, ad hoc DM's fiat decisions cause far more angst around gaming tables over the years than any number of arguments over attacks of opportunity.

When the DM simply says, "This is the way it is, because I say so." and the rules back him up on this, I have a serious problem. No, I'm sorry. Just because it's your campaign does not give you the right to be the ultimate arbiter when perfectly acceptable rules exist. I had one DM who, after my wizard character in 2e had been created and played for a couple of levels, decide that the rules for magic spell creation weren't good enough, so, he cut the chances of success in half. Now, he didn't inform me of this decision until after I had played the character for a while and amassed the necessary materials to research new spells. In his mind, creating new spells was something for legendary mages, and to heck with the rules.

It's DM's like that that has fueled the Player Revolt. Many, many players are simply fed up with completely arbitrary decisions by idiot DM's. The role of DM does not carry any sort of requirement for being intelligent. The role of being a GOOD DM does. Unfortunately, there are lots of stupid people out there and, sometimes, they get to sit in the Daddy chair and run DND games. 3e and particularly 3.5 has created a ruleset that governs as much of the game as possible. Elements that used to be completely arbitrary are now routinely covered by the rules.

An average DM can run a pretty good DnD 3e game. A poor DM can run an ok one. In earlier editions, it required a good DM to have a good game. Well, if you've got a good DM, it doesn't really matter what game you play, it's fun. Unfortunately, the number of good DM's out there has never been all that high and has been far outnumbered by the piss poor DM's out there. 3.5 has enabled DM's to play decent games with a minimum of fuss regardless of a lack of ability. The rules work pretty well as training wheels to keep DM's on an even track. Earlier editions lacked the safety of balanced and encompassing rules, which meant that derailments were common and quite often spectacularly bad.

On another note - CR.

CR is simply a codification of what we did as DM's in previous editions. Before CR, you used your experience as a DM, your knowledge of the group and a fair bit of Kentucky windage to create encounters that you thought were a challenge for your group. It no more takes away from the power of DM's than saying using a hammer takes away from the ability of a carpenter. It's a tool, nothing more or less. It's use as a tool varies from game to game, because the assumptions inherent in CR may or may not apply to your particular group. IME, CR tends to be fairly underestimated. I routinely pummel my party with encounters that should be cakewalks. I'm not sure if I'm simply playing the creatures too tactically or my players aren't tactical enough. Perhaps a little of both. But, in any case, I can take a look at CR and make an educated guess as to how tough the encounter should be for my group.

It's a shorthand method for adventure design. I'm not really sure where the problem is. If you have a fairly typical 5th level party, then a CR 5 creature such as a troll should be a reasonable challenge for them. In earlier editions, you'd have a 5th level party and toss a couple of trolls at them with the expectation of a stiff fight but certainly no fatalities.

All CR and Encounter Level did was give DM's a shorthand method for designing adventures. If you were writing a rough draft of an adventure, you could simply make a decision tree with applicable CR encounters plunked here and there. Heck, I recently designed a random encounter table based entirely on CR. 2d10, similar to the older edition random encounter tables, with a CR= Character level -1 at the common numbers, CR=Character Level at the less common numbers and CR=Character Level +1 or +2 at the top and bottom. I then went over to the World Of Sulerin Encounter maker, plugged in the CR's, got lists of creatures based on the books I own, and picked the creatures that worked best in my adventure. Poof, instant random encounter table that makes sense, and I know won't obliterate my party with insane challenges. All done in about 5 minutes. If I had to go through my 2 Monster Manuals, 3 Creature Collections and my Sandstorm book to sift through creatures I thought would work, it would take me an hour. I'd much rather spend 5 minutes of prep time to get the same result.

That's how you use CR.
 

Akrasia said:
Indeed. I agree with you 100 percent here, Henry. :)

The DM/GM is the creative input that makes a table-top game far more satisfying than Everquest or World of Warcraft.

'Limiting' his/her power seems counter-productive. If you want to 'limit' the GM, why not just use a bloody computer?
:\

Why do people always take things to the extreme? :uhoh:

It's not about stripping all power away from the DM. It IS about making sure that DM's arbitration is kept to a minimum when it's not needed. Why is having a DM ad hoc rules inherently better than having explicit rules that work? So long as we play PnP games, a DM will be required. There will always be things that require DM arbitration. However, there's no reason that common events which occur in many campaigns should not have solid rules. Combat is likely going to occur in every campaign. Why should every campaign have different rules governing combat? Again, that's an extreme example, but you get my point I think.

Personally, I think of a GM as a referee, rather than a game designer. Referees in every game will make different calls based on their own styles. But, they don't get to change the rules in the middle of the game. That sort of arbitrary action by DM's grates on me and on many players I'm sure.
 

Akrasia said:
Indeed. I agree with you 100 percent here, Henry. :)

The DM/GM is the creative input that makes a table-top game far more satisfying than Everquest or World of Warcraft.

'Limiting' his/her power seems counter-productive. If you want to 'limit' the GM, why not just use a bloody computer?
:\
Because a game where everyone has an equal contribution can be just as fun.
 


Sometimes, I wonder if the problems that people have with running D&D 3e are due to the rough transition from DMing 2e to 3e. Back in 2000, I was really disappointed that the DMG didn't come with an appendix that basically went, "So you've been running 2e/1e for 10 or more years? OK, here's what you need to re-learn to adjust to 3e..."

IME, a lot of DMs (myself included) went through a year or so of trial and error experimentation with the game before they finally got a good handle on how things worked. I was using ELs, XP awards, and the treasure by level system incorrectly or simply not using them for quite a long time.

I think that the art of running 3e is different than that artistry of running a 1e or 2e campaign. Running 1e was an exercise in thinking on your feet. Running 3e is an exercise in good planning. The skills overlap to a significant degree (1e required prep work, there's still plenty of room for improv in 3e), but the roots are different.

Personally, I think RPGs are at their best when the DM and players all have an equal stake in the fun and an equal voice at the table. I like it when my players take charge of the story and make stuff happen. I also like sharing the rules load. If one of my players knows the grapple rules inside and out, I don't mind at all deferring to him. But I can see how that runs counter to how 1e worked, and when I've run 1e or OD&D in the past 5 years I've noticed that my DMing style is much different. When you have to make a ruling to cover a situation, you can't just ask the players what the rule is or should be.
 


But I can see how that runs counter to how 1e worked, and when I've run 1e or OD&D in the past 5 years I've noticed that my DMing style is much different. When you have to make a ruling to cover a situation, you can't just ask the players what the rule is or should be.

That's an excellent point. I find myself asking my players once in a while what a particular rule is. And, knowing my players, I know that the answer I get is going to be pretty accurate. I just got so frustrated with arguing around the table about whether or not a particular action could be done and how it should be handled. IME, every DND game I either ran or played came to a grinding halt whenever something happened that was outside of the rules. Maybe I just played with too many rules lawyers. That could be true. But, I know that in my 3e games, arguing around the table is at most a 5 minute sidetrek. Point comes up, flip to page X, find a rule that fits, apply it, carry on. No fuss no foul.

I think DM as referee is a fairly new experience for DnD and its a transition that has been difficult for many to make.
 

Rasyr said:
The only player to have problems is the one without a college degree? And you don't see something wrong with that picture?

I don't see anything wrong with a game that requires an IQ of 112+ (roughly, average college IQ), or IQ 130+ for that matter. Plenty of traditional wargames are incredibly complex.
 

Remove ads

Top