3e, DMs, and Inferred Player Power

swrushing said:
but if my plauer wants to alter a class to suit his idea or have a customized spell or whatever, i wont say NO to the request unless i have a darn good reason to do so. My default is yes.

I find it works well enough.

My default is to say yes to concepts, but to arbitrate mechanics - some players are munchkins and will always want the most OTT spell or to twist the rules to make their PC invincible, eg creating an OTT PrC. Other players won't think about mechanics eg of a PrC and will suggest something woefully underpowered compared to a Core Class. Other players like me who GM a lot will tend to be over-cautious in their suggestions, not wanting to munchkinise, and should be worked with to create something good but not OTT.
 

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mearls said:
I actually agree completely. I think that it's easy to swing too far in one direction. 1e and 2e put all the power in the DM's hands. 3e veers in the opposite direction. Ideally, D&D should service both ends perfectly.

Hm, I guess I'll always be of the 1e DMG "Final Power Vests in the DM" school. I think Gygax was right then & he's still right now. I cooperate with my players to create the game we want, but I'm not interested in an adversarial court-room approach where player & GM argue their cases and then submit to the Book of Law/PHB as the Authority.
 

I think D&D has the tendency to push power too far towards the player side of the equation, even though it's understandable considering WotC wants to sell their products, not warn of them.

But generally, I don't think a greater balance of power is bad. Yes, there are many unbalanced choices in official and d20 supplements. But a good DM will take care of that.

However, there are just as many bad DMs. And there are some really bad DMs out there. Without rules guidelines and comprehensive mechanics, these DMs stand alone. As it is, they can rely on the rules and, even if an option is unbalanced, that's not something that wouldn't have happened without the rules as they are. So in a sense, good rules can take care of bad DMs, too.

So I don't see the problem here. A good DM will chuck what he doesn't like, and no prblems will arise, and a bad DM can follow the rules and the players benefit, too.

The tendency to grow into a MMTabletopRPG is dangerous, but that is more a problem of players growing up with Online RPG and not with fantasy literature as groundworks.
 

Henry said:
The problem with the six points you made is that it's fine as long as #4 and #5 actually come true. But what I see happening is that if the DM is not vested with SOME power of arbitration, rather than just being a "glorified computer that sets up the world and lets the players run", then roleplay is de-emphasized, and all you've got is a CRPG on paper, and the type of gaming that I used to do, and have no interest in going back to. I offer Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online as the ultimate examples of what happens when the DM and the social aspects are removed from the equation; in every one of them, play other than power-accumulation is non-existent, and why I quit half of them, and refuse to play in the other half.

Finally, having more players around IS a good thing, but it's a double edged sword, when they have little to no experience with play styles other than the ones mentioned above. It changes the hobby in very significant ways, and while D&D will continue, at that point it's no longer an RPG, it's just a way to play the computer game when your ISP is having problems. :)
I refer to Hussar's excellent replies in post #73 and #74. Quite frankly, I doubt that any set of rules can ever be comprehensive enough that the DM never has to make any kind of judgement. As the ENWorld Rules Forum shows, the same set of rules can be interpreted very differently by different people.

I do sympathize if you are unable to find people with similar tastes for roleplaying to game with, but I think that the human interaction that is inherent in any pen and paper game makes it significantly different from a CRPG. My gaming group breaks almost all the rules of a roleplaying game. We take turns to DM so there isn't a coherent storyline. There is no character identification or ownership because we collectively advance a set of stock characters with uninspiring names like Human Favored Soul, Human Hexblade/Warlock and Human Warmage/Fighter/Eldritch Knight, and each player basically decides which one he wants to play at every game session. We don't keep track of XP and gear - the characters just advance one level after every session and we equip them based on the standard gear value for their new level in the DMG. A standard gaming session is basically one combat encounter after another with a little bit of plot to make them coherent. Do we roleplay? We don't do a lot of it, but we still do. Do we have fun? You bet :D. And that's the whole point, isn't it?
 

FireLance said:
I refer to Hussar's excellent replies in post #73 and #74. Quite frankly, I doubt that any set of rules can ever be comprehensive enough that the DM never has to make any kind of judgement. As the ENWorld Rules Forum shows, the same set of rules can be interpreted very differently by different people.

I do sympathize if you are unable to find people with similar tastes for roleplaying to game with, but I think that the human interaction that is inherent in any pen and paper game makes it significantly different from a CRPG. My gaming group breaks almost all the rules of a roleplaying game. We take turns to DM so there isn't a coherent storyline. There is no character identification or ownership because we collectively advance a set of stock characters with uninspiring names like Human Favored Soul, Human Hexblade/Warlock and Human Warmage/Fighter/Eldritch Knight, and each player basically decides which one he wants to play at every game session. We don't keep track of XP and gear - the characters just advance one level after every session and we equip them based on the standard gear value for their new level in the DMG. A standard gaming session is basically one combat encounter after another with a little bit of plot to make them coherent. Do we roleplay? We don't do a lot of it, but we still do. Do we have fun? You bet :D. And that's the whole point, isn't it?
Definitely a case of horses for courses, I don't think I'd enjoy this for any lenght of time - could be fun for a one shot, but otherwise I'd rather play Paranoia where due to the life expectancy of characters its reasonable to run new ones each session.
 

mearls said:
Sometimes, I wonder if the problems that people have with running D&D 3e are due to the rough transition from DMing 2e to 3e. Back in 2000, I was really disappointed that the DMG didn't come with an appendix that basically went, "So you've been running 2e/1e for 10 or more years? OK, here's what you need to re-learn to adjust to 3e..."

All I had to relearn were rules. No core assumptions changed save in the assumptions of the folks who designed the new system. The assumptions of a given DM's table are unique to the DM and unique to the group. While certain similarities will exist because we all all playing the same game, the manner in which arbitration is carried out and the way adventures are crafted, paced and run is individual based on the DM and players involved.

The core assumptions of the core rules are for vanilla campaigns. Running Dragonlance, FR, Eberron, my Homebrew or IH are very different things and require a DM to know the setting and atmosphere conveyed. The setting determines the assumptions. Once a set of core assumptions determine the way settings work, then you have all settings being the same.

I was a 2e skills and powers DM so I was quite familiar with empowering players with greater options. I very much remember character kits and allowed them when they suited the setting

IME, a lot of DMs (myself included) went through a year or so of trial and error experimentation with the game before they finally got a good handle on how things worked. I was using ELs, XP awards, and the treasure by level system incorrectly or simply not using them for quite a long time.

I use a XP system like that present in the UA while cutting the rapidity of advancement by about 1/3 to 1/2. There is no such thing in my world as treasure by level as IMO this is just too computer gamey. For 25yrs D&D adventures had treasure based on the adventure and the type of game the DM was running. Some DMs had beholders with jewels in their gullets while others had treasure based not on encounter levels but on whether or not a creature would actually have treasure and the amount of loot in his or her setting. Things worked fine for years.

CRs are a decent guideline but because this isn't a computer game, if you wander into the liches tomb at 5th level because you lack good sense, the tomb determines what is encountered and not the level of the players. In my estimation, there is something a bit cheesy about things being so formulaic. Sometimes the PCs will bump into critters far weaker than themselves if the surrounding area is dominated by less powerful creatures ie. the goblin hills are still occupied largely by goblin tribed whether the PCs are 1st or 20th level. In other regions the PCs may be hard pressed t survive if below a certain level because the threats living in that area are determined by the setting and not the level of the guys who are wandering through it. Its an art form really.

Personally, I think RPGs are at their best when the DM and players all have an equal stake in the fun and an equal voice at the table. I like it when my players take charge of the story and make stuff happen. I also like sharing the rules load. If one of my players knows the grapple rules inside and out, I don't mind at all deferring to him. But I can see how that runs counter to how 1e worked, and when I've run 1e or OD&D in the past 5 years I've noticed that my DMing style is much different. When you have to make a ruling to cover a situation, you can't just ask the players what the rule is or should be.

I agree. I think that all have equal stake in the fun but to my experience no matter who is in charge everyone wants to have a good time. Having said that, having an equal stake in the fun in no way translates into equal dominion over the events, backdrop, and nature of the setting and equal arbitration of the rules. No, the DM has that power. There is no reason to believe that most groups work better when there is a commitee of co-equal DMs. It has never worked this way amongst 99% of the groups I have encountered. The players deal with their one character and attempt to have a good time with a very, very limited workload and focus. The DM has a much more labor intensive job and 20X more things to concern himself with. It is the DM who maintains the setting's integrity. It is the DMs job to arbitrate and to adjudicate above and beyond what the books say when necessary.

I enjoy players who know the rules as well as I, but I make the final call. The joy of dealing with rules lawyers died within me about 20yrs ago and never returned.

Think of it this way....an example of good DMing are the many OGL created products on the market which are, for all intents and purposes, DMs being DMs and hammering away at the game to make it their own and then selling their home brew ideas and systems on RPGnow.com and other outlets.

The DM is still the power in the game and though all have equal stake in the fun, all have different focuses. Players focus on their characters and hopefully the unfolding story and the DM focuses and controls everything else. The players have control over the game only insofar as their characters impact events in the game through their actions. In a metagame sense they have little to no control over the game or setting as a whole.


Chris
 
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mearls said:
Personally, I think RPGs are at their best when the DM and players all have an equal stake in the fun and an equal voice at the table. I like it when my players take charge of the story and make stuff happen. I also like sharing the rules load. If one of my players knows the grapple rules inside and out, I don't mind at all deferring to him. But I can see how that runs counter to how 1e worked, and when I've run 1e or OD&D in the past 5 years I've noticed that my DMing style is much different. When you have to make a ruling to cover a situation, you can't just ask the players what the rule is or should be.

The flaw here is that I have yet to see players' contribute equally to a game. They show up maybe one day a week and sometimes you're lucly if they have updated their character or had taken notes from the previous session.

There can be no equality at the table as long as the DM spends so much more time to provide that fun experience than the players'.

Now, I love to DM, and that is a part of why I do it, but if the "rules" strip me of any ability to make a decision, or shoehorn my games into a certain style, then why play? People have said for the last few years that everyone wants to play 3e and no one wants to DM it. If the game bleeds DMs, then it will not survive. There is only so far that the rules can "eliminate" the DM before the game devolves into a minis game where people play set "scenarios" from a book.

Giving players options is fine and dandy, but you cannot ask someone to put in the majority of work and then tell them that they are equal to everyone else.
 

S'mon said:
Hm, I guess I'll always be of the 1e DMG "Final Power Vests in the DM" school. I think Gygax was right then & he's still right now. I cooperate with my players to create the game we want, but I'm not interested in an adversarial court-room approach where player & GM argue their cases and then submit to the Book of Law/PHB as the Authority.
\

This statement is true.
 

I not even going to finish the first post.
CORE OR THE DOOR!
Why? In other editions with so many splat books I start the rule that I had have my own purchased (no photocopies or loans) copy of book. And the player who wanted something out the splat book had to gift me a copy. Because I got tired of splatbooks having badly written rules which turn my game sideways.
If I can say no then and can now say NO! today. Grow a backbone and learn the power word No. Also learn to give up the dm chair and just be a player.
 

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