D&D 4E 4E Cosmology & Yougoloths

[Nyeshet]

Whether or not they make it into a book, I think they will continue to exist.

From what I understand about the new Devils, they are Fallen. They had to have some place to fall and it existed long before they slipped.

Actually, the Nine Hells in which the devils are trapped is the former astral domain of the deity they killed. The deity's dying curse trapped (and warped) its former celestial servants in its home realm / domain. So, no, the Nine Hells did not exist prior to the creation / transformation of the devils.

Evil was around before they fell and was probably the secret reason why they fell.

Almost certainly true, as evil deities already existed (and quite possibly their own former deity could have been an evil deity they overthrew). However, the fact that evil pre-existed does not necessitate that Yugoloths existed, as evil deities - such as Tharizdun (spelling?) - can explain the existence of such.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

The new cosmology confirms The Abyss and The Nine Hells but doesn't look like it has anywhere for the yougoloths. I assume that with the clarification (simplification) of demon and devil roles that they will be dropped completely from 4E. The only mention of them so far is that Ice Devils are some form of yugoloth/demon (so even that isn't clear exactly what they are).

The only one I can see existing is Charon as a boatman on the River Styx in the Shadowfell (which would be cool).

Any thoughts?

I welcome the demise of "yugoloth" as a distinct category of fiends. They should be made demons or devils, as appropriate.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I would prefer it if Yugoloths just ceased to exist in 4E. I hate the name, and they themselves serve no purpose. They only really exist to fill out an alignment quota. They don't even have a basis in any mythology or fiction outside of D&D. With the implied death (or at least radical change) of alignment in 4E and the push towards greater mythological accuracy among demons and devils, I don't see a place for them at all.

I won't miss them, that is for certain.

 

[Zurai]

They don't even have a basis in any mythology or fiction outside of D&D.

Neither do beholders, illithids, gith, tieflings, aasimar, inevitables, modrons, or any of a legion of other D&D monsters. That is no reason to eliminate any of them - in fact, it's a reason to keep them!

 

[DandD]

Inevitables, modrons and formians are stupid concept of Law, created only to maintain the alignment quota, same as Yugoloths (although some of them were quite cool) only served as place-holder beings for the Neutral Evil-guys in the Planescape-setting.
No, they don't really need to continue existing as a distinct group. Getting divided up into elemental type-monstrosities of the Abyss and humanoidesque inhabitants of the Nine Hells is the way to go.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Neither do...tieflings, aasimar...That is no reason to eliminate any of them - in fact, it's a reason to keep them!

The stupid names are peculiar to D&D, but the concepts are not.

 

[thundershot]

Always make sure that you pick the strongest fiends for your team, that way you can gang up on the weaker ones.

And remember, the 4th Ed cosmology is about violence, exclusion, and degradation.

Just like high school!



Chris

 

[catsclaw227]

Inevitables, modrons and formians are stupid concept of Law, created only to maintain the alignment quota, same as Yugoloths (although some of them were quite cool) only served as place-holder beings for the Neutral Evil-guys in the Planescape-setting.
No, they don't really need to continue existing as a distinct group. Getting divided up into elemental type-monstrosities of the Abyss and humanoidesque inhabitants of the Nine Hells is the way to go.

(ducking about) Psst... Don't let Shemeska hear you say that!

 

[Zurai]

Inevitables, modrons and formians are stupid concept of Law, created only to maintain the alignment quota, same as Yugoloths (although some of them were quite cool) only served as place-holder beings for the Neutral Evil-guys in the Planescape-setting.
No, they don't really need to continue existing as a distinct group. Getting divided up into elemental type-monstrosities of the Abyss and humanoidesque inhabitants of the Nine Hells is the way to go.

So what about beholders, illithids, gelatinous cubes, carrion crawlers, etc?

You're completely avoiding my point. I never made any claim about them being alignment-based, merely that they are creatures that were created for and solely exist in D&D. There are many, many storied and iconic creatures that only belong to D&D; stating that a creature should be removed from the new edition because of that is the same as saying the new edition should not have beholders, illithids, etc.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Inevitables, modrons and formians are stupid concept of Law, created only to maintain the alignment quota, same as Yugoloths (although some of them were quite cool) only served as place-holder beings for the Neutral Evil-guys in the Planescape-setting.
No, they don't really need to continue existing as a distinct group. Getting divided up into elemental type-monstrosities of the Abyss and humanoidesque inhabitants of the Nine Hells is the way to go.

What's stupid about them? Inevitables are something like furies, creatures that exist to punish transgression of universal cosmic law. Modrons are a race of clockwork beings that operate as though their entire society were clockwork too. Formians are the Borg. They invade, subjugate, and organize. All of these seem like interesting concepts without invoking D&D alignment.

I really don't see why everything has to be eliminated in some kind of purge just because we're switching editions. Disconnecting demons and devils from the alignment matrix is probably a good thing, and there's no reason why that can't be done with other outsiders.