Lyxen
Great Old One
Yes, I'm reasonably sure...
Just pointing out that the splitting of the fan base is, to me, not necessarily the reason for success or failure of an edition, that's all.
D&D (2024) 4e design in 5.5e ?
- Thread starter Malmuria
- Start date
Yes, I'm reasonably sure...
Just pointing out that the splitting of the fan base is, to me, not necessarily the reason for success or failure of an edition, that's all.
I'll put this in spoilers since its Off-topic but some people might be interested to see how a group of 9th level characters beat a CR30.
- The party had teleported into a "trap" that they had fallen into through various other plot pieces. The githyanki forces were mainly on their barges in a wide open area, save for one tower in the area (aka the archers could target and kill anyone). I had designed this to be an absolute kill trap, as I told the players when the fight started "the gloves were off". However, the party did have a special one use item that gave them all the effects of a long rest....aka they were at 100% power when things went down.
- The party 9th level:
- Wizard
- Sorc
- Fighter
- Paladin
- Rogue
- Barb
- 11th level Cleric (had a cursed shield of arrow attraction, an "important magic item" for this.)
- Most players had 1-2 magic items, like a +1 sword or a ring of fire resistance or something. The only really impactful items were the shield previously mentioned, the one use item that gave every a long rest to start the fight, and each player could get bardic inspiration 1/day through a plot based effect.
- Party all had the standard point buy from the PHB, max hp at first level, half round up for future levels (aka d8 = 5 hp)
- Wizard won initiative, cast a wall of force (dome version) to prevent an insta death to most of the party from the archers.
- Knights started teleporting through the wall, and then porting out when hurt. Main front line forced to engage.
- Sorc cast a fog cloud to prevent the teleportations, and they took out the remaining knights in the dome.
- The wizard's familiar was a bit away from the group and had not been attacked yet. The wizard had his familiar race towards the barge. The familiar was sniped but it allowed the wizard a glance at one of the gun ports through the familiars eyes, and so now the wizard had a direct location and distance inside the ship.
- While the others made the loudest sounds they could as distraction, the wizard and sorc began d dooring people into the gun port. Leaving the barb, rogue, and cleric on the ground.
- Alpha team (in the ship) managed stealth checks and were able to move through key parts of the ship. At the end, they faced the commander (aka the second in command of the entire expedition). Instead of fighting him, the Paladin actually used diplomacy to try and talk the commander down (this was a very intense moment, several of the other players were actually heated about this....they thought it was an insane waste of action at a time when a TPK was still very much a concern). And yet....the paladin got a 30! Moreso, I had actually written into the plot that the commander was fed up with the general on the entire strategic course of the Githyanki campaign (completely in plot before this fight, I was even surprised it came up). And so, the commander took a dive off the ship (with feather fall esque power of course). He didn't surrender, but he didn't intervene. The wizard got to the control wheel (aka a ship looking spin wheel). He placed a resilient sphere around himself and the wheel....he took himself out of the fight directly, but guaranteed he would keep control of the ship. This dropped the wall of force, leading to....
- Beta Team prepared for the wall of force drop. The cleric casts as many protective spells as he could, and went into dodge. The Rogue and Barb prepared to run. As the wall of force dropped and the fog dissipated, the archers opened fire. The shield of arrow attraction gives the user resistance against arrows but also attracts all areas in the area to them. And so the cleric took the full force....but through the power of dodge, a massive buffed AC to begin with, and resistance to arrows.....managed to survive and get a heal spell off. The barb and rogue raced for the tower while the arrows were raining down into the shield.
- The main barg (now under Alphas Control) began raining fire on the smaller platforms holding the archers (basically fireballs). And so the archers who had been in cramped conditions on the platforms, began to get devastated. The main barge lifted up to ensure the knights on the ground couldn't get back to them, and so the main barge started focusing on the archers....and the small barges were no match for the main one.
- Beta Team got into the tower where the main githyanki general was at, and started the fight there.
- This led into the meat of the combat. Alpha Team dealt with githyanki on the main barge while the wizard used the barge to fight the archers....even ramming them to knock more archers off to their deaths. Beta Team fought the general, and the cleric dealt with the knights.
- It remained a big scramble through the rest of the fight. A fireball from the barg helped the cleric with the knights. Eventually the sorc was able to get down to the tower and help Beta team, who was no match for the General 2 on 1. A lot of epic combat, but your more standard tactics at that point, not the "special actions" we have seen up onto this point.
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overgeeked
Open-World Sandbox
Yeah. Sometimes characters suck. C’est la vie.
this reminds me of people that keep telling me that the billion dollar one of the top grossing of all time new star wars movies failed... because fans complained. I hope to someday reach the failure of these products... I am also sure you would love to have 1% of that failure...
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Okay. I didn't say that 4e failed, so I don't really know what this is about.Yes, I'm reasonably sure...
Just pointing out that the splitting of the fan base is, to me, not necessarily the reason for success or failure of an edition, that's all.
See above.
lol okay bud.
Maybe you guys weren't paying attention to the transition from 4e to 5e, idk, but the word from wizards was pretty simply that 4e's publication ended, and they designed 5e with the feedback they did, because in spite of DnD rising in mainstream popularity, and things like Aquisitions Inc being "huge" from the perspective of that time, the DnD fanbase was still quite split, to the point where Pathfinder spent the whole print run of 4e head to head with dnd in sales.
So, like I said, a profitable product, set aside in favor of a new product designed to not split the fanbase so that it can be even more profitable. Which worked.
This has nothing to do with any idea of any given product being a "failure". I literally referred to it as being profitable in the post you both quoted.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
The non-face to face environment seems to bring a lot of software into the picture and it takes time for players/dm and maybe even viewer I think to integrate it. Over time I suspect it works its way into being a background element. Also I can see about any DM in doing fewer scenery descriptions in an environment with pretty maps, mine classically are usually quick sketches for instance.
They did have them on when i watched* and were also running their own other streams in the three live cases you probably watched a saved edited version.
*(I think only one player didnt)
Nefermandias
Hero
We have to consider the fact that "Martial" in the 4e context was a Power Source as much as Divine, Arcane, Primal, Psionic or Shadow. It goes beyond what regular people could ever hope to achieve and it's more like some kind of magic that special people can achieve by means of intense physical training and ancient practices.
Keep in mind that things that everyone could do like Melee Basic Attack, Bull Rush and Grab were not true "Martial" powers.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Thanks for the roundup,
In the spoiler tag, my reply to you
Thanks for the roundup. An epic fight, exactly as I imagined it.
In the spoiler tag, my reply to you
And exactly what I thought:
So this is definitely NOT a "too easy" scenario but an epic battle.
We had similar scenarios in 2e and 3e with a certain underground adventure where you have to raid a whole city.
I don't imagine how we won in 2e as players, but as a DM I remember the scenario well when I converted it to 3.5.
Key points:
The enemy, a lich, level 18 or so cleric CR 23 or 4 was through luck the first target and did just survive the surprise assault with 3 hp and then just died nex time because it foolishly tried to stun the assailants instead of phase shifting away
Everything taken together it was at least a CR 30 scenario vs 5 or 6 lvl 11 characters I think.
So by that definition 3e was way too easy
- one of the "broken" spells
- the perfect magic items
- perfect enemies
- a very good and creative plan.
- combat was broken up in several smaller ones.
So this is definitely NOT a "too easy" scenario but an epic battle.
We had similar scenarios in 2e and 3e with a certain underground adventure where you have to raid a whole city.
I don't imagine how we won in 2e as players, but as a DM I remember the scenario well when I converted it to 3.5.
Key points:
- rary's telepathic bond
- flying Team A armed with fireballs
- stationary hidden and greater invisible team B with ice storm and flame strikes (you don't see the origin contrary to fireball)
- dimension door ranger and bladesinger who went into the commanding buildings and called for "air strikes" whenever needed.
The enemy, a lich, level 18 or so cleric CR 23 or 4 was through luck the first target and did just survive the surprise assault with 3 hp and then just died nex time because it foolishly tried to stun the assailants instead of phase shifting away
Everything taken together it was at least a CR 30 scenario vs 5 or 6 lvl 11 characters I think.
So by that definition 3e was way too easy
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I mean, I get it. Just saying, I don’t think the critics were as bothered by encounter powers as daily.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
I guess when it comes to stats, I think it's kinda boring if you know that your highest stat will be the most important one for your character class/build, the second-highest the second-most important and so on.
What if instead you had a rule like: Okay, your primary ability score starts with 16 or 15 or whatever kids these days like as minimum-to-be-viable. So everyone can ensure his Wizard has enough Int to be good, and your Fighter has enough Strenght to be good. Kinda boring up to point, but potentially unavoidable because otherwise there is too much grief, and everyone starts on the same playing field, too.
But now we add some randomness. Then, order the rest of your stats in order of priority.
Roll 1d6 twice, reroll if both dice come up the same, or pick option 7.
1: Your 1st unassigned score becomes 14
2: Your 2nd Priority is determined by rolling 4d6, drop lowest.
3. Your 3rd Priority is determined by rolling 3d6.
4. After assigning all scores, your 4th Priority will have the same value as your 2nd Priority.
5. After assigning all scores, your 3rd priority will exchange value with your 1st Priority.
6. Your least prioritized stat becomes 18.
7. The player picks two items on this list as he prefers and assigns the remaining scores. Then, he reduces his highest score by 2, and adds 1d4 to his lowest stat. If he wants, he can instead add 1d4 to another player's character lowest stat (if multiple players are creating their characters.)
Then, assign the following 5 stats in order of priority to the ability scores that have not yet assigned a score: 15, 13, 10, 8, 6.
What if instead you had a rule like: Okay, your primary ability score starts with 16 or 15 or whatever kids these days like as minimum-to-be-viable. So everyone can ensure his Wizard has enough Int to be good, and your Fighter has enough Strenght to be good. Kinda boring up to point, but potentially unavoidable because otherwise there is too much grief, and everyone starts on the same playing field, too.
But now we add some randomness. Then, order the rest of your stats in order of priority.
Roll 1d6 twice, reroll if both dice come up the same, or pick option 7.
1: Your 1st unassigned score becomes 14
2: Your 2nd Priority is determined by rolling 4d6, drop lowest.
3. Your 3rd Priority is determined by rolling 3d6.
4. After assigning all scores, your 4th Priority will have the same value as your 2nd Priority.
5. After assigning all scores, your 3rd priority will exchange value with your 1st Priority.
6. Your least prioritized stat becomes 18.
7. The player picks two items on this list as he prefers and assigns the remaining scores. Then, he reduces his highest score by 2, and adds 1d4 to his lowest stat. If he wants, he can instead add 1d4 to another player's character lowest stat (if multiple players are creating their characters.)
Then, assign the following 5 stats in order of priority to the ability scores that have not yet assigned a score: 15, 13, 10, 8, 6.
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