4e (DnD: Tactics) remake wish list.

[Tales and Chronicles]

Bonded accuracy, fewer feats with tiny fiddly little bonuses.

Clean up all the feat taxes remaining after the above.

Change MC to allow power swapping if you have any MC feat, and introduce follow up MC feats that give you more of the second classes shtick.

You can use a given power more than once.

Each class has options built in to forgo encounter or daily powers in exchange for something simple and “always on”, or a simplistic power they can just use over and over.

Reduce monster HP and general HP and damage bloat.

Make implements more like weapons, with each having damage dice and other properties, so that using a wand is different from using a tome. Also put tome as an implement from the start.

Allow power scaling in place of higher level power swapping.

<---This.

Just do this.

I myself would just remove Feats, instead going with:

Lvl 1: 2 at-wills, 1 encounter, 1 daily
lvl 2: Utility
lvl 3: Encounter
lvl 4: Skill power or Ancestry Power
lvl 5: Daily
lvl 6: Utility
lvl 7: Daily
etc

You gain a number of Encounter and Daily uses equal to your Encounter or Daily powers ''known'', so you can use the same one if you want.

Reduce the number of classes, but allow each class to cover more than one role by selecting appropriate powers clearly identified by Role (ie: a Cleric could have a power list composed of cleric/avenger powers ).

Fighter (Fighter + Warlord powers + Knight/Slayer stances )
Rogue (more Controller power ala Knock Out or Blinding Barrage)
Wizard (Increase the damage of damage only powers, support powers from Artificer)
Cleric (Invoker + Cleric + Rune priest)
Bard (as-is, already a controller-leader)
Barbarian (Barb+ Berserker's stance + Warden + Thrown Seeker)
Ranger (Scout + Ranger + Hunter + Bow Seeker)
Paladin ( Paladin + Cavalier + Blackguard + Avenger)
Druid (Druid + Shaman + Protector + that other one from Essentials)
Warlock (Warlock + Hexblade + Binder)
Monk (Monk + Battlemind)
Psion (Psion + Ardent)
Assassin (Executioner at-wills + Shrouds + Assassin powers)
Swordmage (Swordmage + Bladesinger)

Give the weapon users ''stance'' at-wills ala Essentials to modify their Basic attacks to differentiate from the at-will powers of Implement users.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

On one hand, I like that you had to use different powers. Spamming the same thing gets boring.

On the other, having some simple options is good too.

Otherwise I agree.

Yeah I do think that spamming is already pretty common, so if you get annoyed by others at the table doing that, I can see why you'd be reluctant to make that change.

<---This.

Just do this.

I myself would just remove Feats, instead going with:

Lvl 1: 2 at-wills, 1 encounter, 1 daily
lvl 2: Utility
lvl 3: Encounter
lvl 4: Skill power or Ancestry Power
lvl 5: Daily
lvl 6: Utility
lvl 7: Daily
etc

You gain a number of Encounter and Daily uses equal to your Encounter or Daily powers ''known'', so you can use the same one if you want.

Reduce the number of classes, but allow each class to cover more than one role by selecting appropriate powers clearly identified by Role (ie: a Cleric could have a power list composed of cleric/avenger powers ).

Fighter (Fighter + Warlord powers + Knight/Slayer stances )
Rogue (more Controller power ala Knock Out or Blinding Barrage)
Wizard (Increase the damage of damage only powers, support powers from Artificer)
Cleric (Invoker + Cleric + Rune priest)
Bard (as-is, already a controller-leader)
Barbarian (Barb+ Berserker's stance + Warden + Thrown Seeker)
Ranger (Scout + Ranger + Hunter + Bow Seeker)
Paladin ( Paladin + Cavalier + Blackguard + Avenger)
Druid (Druid + Shaman + Protector + that other one from Essentials)
Warlock (Warlock + Hexblade + Binder)
Monk (Monk + Battlemind)
Psion (Psion + Ardent)
Assassin (Executioner at-wills + Shrouds + Assassin powers)
Swordmage (Swordmage + Bladesinger)

Give the weapon users ''stance'' at-wills ala Essentials to modify their Basic attacks to differentiate from the at-will powers of Implement users.

You'll never see me agreeing with shrinking the class numbers, but I do agree with letting some classes choose between two roles, and folding a lot of the essentials and PHB stuff into single classes rather than having 3 rangers, 2 rogues, etc.


I could do a whole thread about how to improve the 4e assassin and make it incredible to play. fix the issues with getting shrouds on a target quickly, and it's a great mechanic. Combine that with better math on the powers, and executioner at-wills, and fold the poisons into the assassin daily power list, and I'm happy.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm not a fan of reducing the classes, I do agree some classes should have options in multiple roles.

 

[MwaO]

I would definitely want bounded accuracy in 4e.

That would eliminate the need for having boss, regular, and minion versions of the same monster.

Bounded Accuracy doesn't exist. It is just 4e/2 math made deliberately obscure. You get +9 to hit instead of +18, +6 to important skills instead of +12.

Having monsters transform from boss to regular to minion as the PCs gain levels just means that a 7th level monster is easy to use at 11th/19th. Instead of being weird depending on its abilities, meaning each monster had to specifically looked at and making CR kind of useless.

 

[Konrad13]

I would just want more of everything.

 

[mellored]

Bounded Accuracy doesn't exist. It is just 4e/2 math made deliberately obscure. You get +9 to hit instead of +18, +6 to important skills instead of +12.

4e math was roughly +1 per level. With combination of proficiency bonus, equipment bonus, and stat boosts.

That means any creature a few levels below/above you can't hit/miss you.

Having monsters transform from boss to regular to minion as the PCs gain levels just means that a 7th level monster is easy to use at 11th/19th. Instead of being weird depending on its abilities, meaning each monster had to specifically looked at and making CR kind of useless.

If the scaling is reduced to say... +1 every 3 levels. Then a 7th level monster can still hit a level 19 PC, just not as often.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I said role not power.

Defenders got their main marks from their class.
Strikers got their damage bonus from classes.
Leaders got their main heal from class.

Letting the fighter take a ranged weapon attack and a tactical move or letting warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards all have fireball wouldn't change their roles.

It would be the best of 5e and 4e combined.

The Barbarian didn't have a damage bonus, and for the ranger Hunter's Mark was almost inconsequential compared to the power of Twin Strike and other multi-attacks. Meanwhile the Paladin might have got their "main mark" from their class - but their main mark was very weak and they got their defender-ability from their ability to spam more minor marks half way across the battle line. As for the "main heal" that depends whether you are playing a laser cleric or a warlord.

Letting a melee cleric have paladin powers would make it a pretty decent defender and letting a warden take barbarian powers would be ludicrous.

So what would I want to see fixed? Let's start with multi-attacks. And the ability to turn on or off the half-level scaling in the character builder.

 

[Haplo781]

ITT:

People fix 4e by making it not 4e

 

[MoonSong]

You can use a given power more than once.

IMo this should be a characteristic of all martials, and of sorcerers.

 

[Haplo781]

IMo this should be a characteristic of all martials, and of sorcerers.

You already can. They're called at-wills.

 

[MwaO]

4e math was roughly +1 per level. With combination of proficiency bonus, equipment bonus, and stat boosts.

5e math is roughly +1/2 per level. i.e. 4e/2.

That means any creature a few levels below/above you can't hit/miss you.

If the scaling is reduced to say... +1 every 3 levels. Then a 7th level monster can still hit a level 19 PC, just not as often.

And the 19th level caster nearly auto-hits the 7th level monster and takes it out with any control effect. And then you end up with things that are more easily handled than 4e minions by casters. Which is boring.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

IMo this should be a characteristic of all martials, and of sorcerers.

As a way to differentiate them? I could see that.

Perhaps wizards could have known and prepared powers, like every other edition?

I think the essentials mage did that, didn’t it?

 

[MoonSong]

As a way to differentiate them? I could see that.

Perhaps wizards could have known and prepared powers, like every other edition?

I think the essentials mage did that, didn’t it?

The core wizard had a choice of dailies. The essentials mage could also prepare encounter powers.

 

[Haplo781]

The core wizard had a choice of dailies. The essentials mage could also prepare encounter powers.

And it mostly didn't matter because there's generally no way of knowing when it's worth swapping out your best general-purpose power for a niche thing.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The core wizard had a choice of dailies. The essentials mage could also prepare encounter powers.

Ah okay, yeah, and then when they brought in time implements some of them game extra power swapping, right?

Tbh I hope the 1DD wizzerd does more with the spellbook.

 

[Konrad13]

I think the only major fix needed would be, like, just do what modern 4e players do - give a free expertise feat at level 1 (or adjust the math for monster defenses down by one on average, keeping their best defense as is maybe?) and make sure every race has the standard +2 to one set ability score, +2 to one of two other ability scores (such as Elves getting +2 to Dex, but then their choice of +2 to Int or Wisdom). In the modern era, though, I guess maybe just everyone should get a static +2 to one of the physical attributes (Str, Dex or Con) and then they get a free +2 to assign to any other ability score?

As for additions, I would say we need a right proper Martial Controller, more Shadow power-sourced classes (with more variety to them), and just, like, MORE. That was one of my favorite things about 4e was just the amount of options that made the game fun.

 

[Horwath]

Remove +1/2 bonus per level from everything.

reduce +6 bonus to +3, then change weapons +X attack and damage to +Xd6 damage.
change armors +X to ac to X damage reduction from all sources.

Halve ALL HPs in the game.

make all powers available to all characters. Some prerequirements may apply.

have more at-will "slots".

 

[Aldarc]

Bonded accuracy, fewer feats with tiny fiddly little bonuses.

I would probably go something closer to PF2 when it comes to "bounded accuracy." I think that 4e's power fantasy is different than 5e's. IMHO, 4e aims for something a bit more mythic, where high level characters don't have much to fear from lower level threats. Bounded accuracy means that a swarm of bandits remain a threat, especially with 5e's action economy, but 4e D&D wants the characters to become mythic heroes who mop the floor with a swarm of bandits. I'm not sure if "bounded accuracy" really jives with 4e's paragon and epic destinies. I do agree, however, that I would remove a lot of the anything that provides "tiny fiddly little bonuses," whether they are feats or otherwise.

Clean up all the feat taxes remaining after the above.

Change MC to allow power swapping if you have any MC feat, and introduce follow up MC feats that give you more of the second classes shtick.

I would probably reduce the reliance on feats, maybe even experiment with removing them entirely. That would remove some of the bloat and fiddly bits. If feats do anything, I would like to see them expand character options horizontally rather than vertically.

You can use a given power more than once.

This also seems doable, possibly if a character uses "healing surges" (see below). But maybe there are other ways for characters to "recharge" their abilities: e.g., critical hits.

Each class has options built in to forgo encounter or daily powers in exchange for something simple and “always on”, or a simplistic power they can just use over and over.

I would probably create a compatible "basic" version of the game and put that in a separate supplement or even starter set. A lot of classes technically do have simplistic powers that they can use over and over: i.e., at wills.

Reduce monster HP and general HP and damage bloat.

This seems like a no-brainer. There is a lot of math that could be adjusted, but it took 4e awhile to find the right math.

Make implements more like weapons, with each having damage dice and other properties, so that using a wand is different from using a tome. Also put tome as an implement from the start.

Yes. Agreed.

Allow power scaling in place of higher level power swapping.

This would potentially work as well in reducing some of the redundancy of higher level powers doing the same thing but a bit better.

Other Potential Changes

• Rename "Healing Surges" to "Vitality" or something a little more accurate to their function in the game
• Change the Sorcerer from using the Arcane power source to Elemental power. The goal here is to have the Sorcerer being a little more closely aligned in the flavor of the World Axis mythos to the Elemental Chaos and potentially even Demons. A Sorcerer thereby becomes not just more of an elementalist but also a caster of chaos magic.

 

[GreyLord]

IF I could change it...I'd simplify it a little.

You can choose one or two Daily's total..BUT you can use a daily as many times as you can use daily powers (so if in 4e you'd have 4 daily powers, in a revised version you'd only have one, but you could use it up to 4 times a day) for Warrior Types and Rogues. (or we could say Strikers and Defenders).

Any Healing Power of a Cleric type class (or leader) could be exchanged for any other power they choose to use, works both ways.

Controllers still work the way they did in 4e, but more like the Wizard's way of controlling (2 choices of a power per usage type idea).

More the monster math of Essentials than the original.

5 Alignments? Let's make it 3??? Good, Neutral, and Evil...OR...Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic.

 

[Olrox17]

Toning down the number inflation would be great. The Inherent Bonus table that was included in Dark Sun 4e was already an extremely good way to reduce the magic item treadmill effect, but some kind of bounded accuracy would be even better, and simpler.

Single classed characters should probably get a few extra features at higher levels, so that hybrids aren't always a more powerful option.