4e (DnD: Tactics) remake wish list.

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
1. There's already 46 classes
26
Essentials classes are subclasses of the original classes

2. The distinction between "caster" and "non-caster" is utterly meaningless in 4e
Nonutterly. Noncasters were all bound to weapon user, have almost not access to damage types outside of equipment, and were mostly lock out of many types of blatantly obvious magical effects even with 4e's permissive heroics. This is because Martial started with its 4 classes and being stapled with all the "non-magic non-caster" archetypes.

This is why to me Martial Power 2 was lame. There are a few nonmagical archetypes not in Martial. And you can't add them without expanding what Martial is or making a 2nd non-magical power source.
 

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Haplo781

Legend
26
Essentials classes are subclasses of the original classes


Nonutterly. Noncasters were all bound to weapon user, have almost not access to damage types outside of equipment, and were mostly lock out of many types of blatantly obvious magical effects even with 4e's permissive heroics. This is because Martial started with its 4 classes and being stapled with all the "non-magic non-caster" archetypes.

This is why to me Martial Power 2 was lame. There are a few nonmagical archetypes not in Martial. And you can't add them without expanding what Martial is or making a 2nd non-magical power source.
I note you didn't address point 3.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I note you didn't address point 3.
There wasn't a 3 when I quoted it.
I don't see the benefit of bloating Martial with 3-4 more classes when they could be in their own power source.

4e took the other path and put some formally non-magical classes into magical power sources. The Primal Barbarian work. The Psionic Monk was a stretch. And the Shadow Assassin was lorewise okay but mechanically bad and forced.

Like I said before, the few valid criticisms of 4e was the forcing of things to fit molds and fill holes.
 

This is going to sound insane... but.

Make it.

Straight up remake 4e D&D using ENTIRELY NEW WRITING.

Put it into your own words, grab new art, and publish it. Same game, different terms. Change it how you like with the "Use powers of their own source independent of role" thing, too. Maybe make some powers Role-Specific and some powers Role-Agnostic to preserve some uniqueness but...

Go for it. No one can stop you.
You're basically describing my Fantasy Heartbreaker project.
 

Horwath

Hero
Have every character a power pool.
Similar to spell points in 5E variant.

Base amount is same for all classes for certain level.
Then some can get little more as a class resource that spends "class feature slot"

martial can get more cheaper "powers" or maneuvers, while casters get more powerful and more expensive "spells".
and everyone gets some "free" maneuvers or spells(cantrips) that costs 0 resource to use.

Pool refreshes to full after long rest.

Part of the pool could get refreshed after short rest(5min long).
I.E. 1/4 of pool max amount, or up to 1/4th amount if under that.

2nd:
make attacker roll everything.

that is return of 3 defenses in addition to AC.

AC: 10+dex(some limits due to armor)+armor bonus+shield
Fort: 8+str+con+prof bonus(if proficient)
Ref: 8+dex+int+prof bonus(if proficient)
Will: 8+wis+cha+prof bonus(if proficient)

Every class gets one defense proficiency,
Resilient feat give +1 ASI and one defense proficiency,
Some classes/subclasses might provide additional defense proficiency at levels 6+,
 


You're basically describing my Fantasy Heartbreaker project.

I think it is possible to replicate 4e with the 5e SRD. Just base everyone at the warlock. Invocation substitute for powers. Pact magic slots can be used to fuel the encounter powers.
Use the heroic rest options with second wind on top.
 

TheHand

Adventurer
Toward the second half of 4e's life, my group did a giant homebrew hack to the game engine with all of our preferred tweaks. We called it "Franken-Fourth." It ended up being our very own 4e-heart breaker. This was probably way too extreme for most 4e fans, but I thought I'd toss this out there in case anyone finds it interesting.

A few things we did:
- Lowered the math scale. It wasn't 5e's bounded accuracy, but nor was it adding +27 to hit at higher levels. This made PCs less reliant on magic items without using some of the weird math fixes.
-Went through many of the encounter/daily powers and tried to smooth them out balance wise, and got rid of a lot of the redundant ones (or combined them). That was a big project, but reduced so much power bloat in the end.
-We created a 'stamina' pool that recharged during Short Rests. You could spend 1 Stamina to activate an Encounter power or what we called "Power Attack" (add +1[W] damage to other ability). A Daily power cost you 2 Stamina and a Healing Surge to activate. Stamina capped out around 4 or 5 I think. The reason for doing this was to give more flexibility to combat. You could now use the same Encounter power twice in a battle, and you didn't need to hoard your Dailies quite as much.
-When you hit Paragon tier, instead of trading out your Encounter/Dailies for new ones, you would pick one of your existing abilities and add a new rider-effect to it (from a pool of effects curated for your Role). Again this was done to cut down on power-bloat.

It of course meant we couldn't use the character builder software anymore, but with the reduced powers, we built some logic into Excel character sheets that worked fine.
 

Haplo781

Legend
I think it is possible to replicate 4e with the 5e SRD. Just base everyone at the warlock. Invocation substitute for powers. Pact magic slots can be used to fuel the encounter powers.
Use the heroic rest options with second wind on top.
Possible? Yes. But also tedious and would have really clunky wording.
 


mellored

Hero
I think it is possible to replicate 4e with the 5e SRD. Just base everyone at the warlock. Invocation substitute for powers. Pact magic slots can be used to fuel the encounter powers.
Use the heroic rest options with second wind on top.
Probably better to make it a new class than use the warlock.

Call it AEDU 4Ever

Level 1.
Pick a role
Leader: healing word 1/encounter.
Defenders: bonus action mark.
Striker: +1d4 damage.
Controler: push someone on a hit

Pick a power source, and select an at-will power from it.

Level 2: Select an encounter and daily power. Each has prerequisites, and scales automatically.

Level 3 is your sub-class. Giving you a special at-will, encounter, and daily power.

Level 4: feat.

Level 5: select another encounter. Expand your roll feature.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Probably better to make it a new class than use the warlock.

Call it AEDU 4Ever

Level 1.
Pick a role
Leader: healing word 1/encounter.
Defenders: bonus action mark.
Striker: +1d4 damage.
Controler: push someone on a hit

Pick a power source, and select an at-will power from it.

Level 2: Select an encounter and daily power. Each has prerequisites, and scales automatically.

Level 3 is your sub-class. Giving you a special at-will, encounter, and daily power.

Level 4: feat.

Level 5: select another encounter. Expand your roll feature.

I once pondered a generic 4e Adventurer 5e Class like that off the premise that 4E 2nd level is 5E 4-6th level.

  1. Power Source (Grants your Daily and At-Will)
    1. Arcane (Wizard cantrip and Spell)
    2. Divine (Cleric cantrip and Spell)
    3. Martial (Fighting Stye and Power Attack)
    4. Primal (Druid cantrip and Spell)
  2. Combat Role (Grants your Encounter plus Role power)
    1. Controller's Check (Slow Down on hit and Restrain 1/SR)
    2. Defender's Mark (Mark on hit and Trip 1/SR)
    3. Leader's Word ("Flank" on Hit and Heal 1/SR)
    4. Striker's Force (+1d6 damage on hit and +Xd4 damage 1/SR)
  3. Adventurer's Hook (Subclass)
  4. Feat
  5. Heroic Power Source (Grants your another Daily and 2nd use of Combat Role)
  6. Utility Power
 


cbwjm

Legend
If you're keeping the aedu system, then I think you could replace a bunch of higher powers with the ability to use a higher level "slot" to use a power at higher level. You don't need 3 different fireballs that have different names because the higher level versions deal more damage, just use fireball and boost the damage. Using the 4e psionics might actually be able to format a basis for this, a resource that can boost powers.

I agree that powers within a power source should be grouped and allowed to be accessed by everyone who uses that power source, with the class providing modifiers. I could also see some classes having primary/secondary sources so a paladin might be primary martial/secondary divine.
 

Haplo781

Legend
If you're keeping the aedu system, then I think you could replace a bunch of higher powers with the ability to use a higher level "slot" to use a power at higher level. You don't need 3 different fireballs that have different names because the higher level versions deal more damage, just use fireball and boost the damage. Using the 4e psionics might actually be able to format a basis for this, a resource that can boost powers.
Psionic augmentation in 4e is less "make a power act like it's higher level" and more "make an at-will act like an encounter".
 


Aldarc

Legend
4e took the other path and put some formally non-magical classes into magical power sources. The Primal Barbarian work. The Psionic Monk was a stretch. And the Shadow Assassin was lorewise okay but mechanically bad and forced.
The Psionic Monk was hardly a stretch. It worked well IMHO.

Like I said before, the few valid criticisms of 4e was the forcing of things to fit molds and fill holes.
If you said this before, I probably disagreed with it before, because I didn't find it a valid criticism then much like I don't find it a valid criticism now. 🤷‍♂️
 

Olrox17

Hero
Tthe Shadow Assassin was lorewise okay but mechanically bad and forced.
The 4e shadow assassin was very, very hard to build correctly, but if you did, it was extremely good. And extremely fun! Possibly my favorite 4e PC, alongside the wizard/swordmage hybrid.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The Psionic Monk was hardly a stretch. It worked well IMHO.
I didn't say it didn't work. I said it was a stretch.

Some monks being Psionic makes sense. All monks being Psionic is a Stretch. Because...



If you said this before, I probably disagreed with it before, because I didn't find it a valid criticism then much like I don't find it a valid criticism now. 🤷‍♂️
Then the monk should have been split into 2 classes. A Martial monk and a Psionic Monk.

Much how the Essentials assassin, ranger and barbarian are 2 power sources.

THATS what I meant by forced. Classes were assigned to fit the grid and match up with PHB releases.

How I'd do it.
ControllerDefenderLeaderStriker
ArcaneWizardSwordmageBardWarlock
DivineinvokerPaladinCleric
Templar
Avenger
ElementalElementalistRuneknightSorcerer
GuileSwashbuckler
Gladiator
ArtificerRogue
MartialFighterWarlordBarbarian
Brawler
PrimalProtectorWardenDruid
Shaman
Ranger
PsionicPsionBattlemindArdentMonk
ShadowBinderHexbladeVampireAssassin

This is why I also think classes within the same power source should share powers.

It would have saved book space and allowed more than 8 classes in PHB 1. Then the Barbarian, Bard Druid, and Monk Brawler could have fit in it as classes would have shared powers.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I didn't say it didn't work. I said it was a stretch.

Some monks being Psionic makes sense. All monks being Psionic is a Stretch. Because...
...you want them to also be martial? That doesn't make psionic monks a "stretch." It means that you have a different aesthetic preference for the monk. That's fine, but not a "stretch."

THATS what I meant by forced. Classes were assigned to fit the grid and match up with PHB releases.
I don't think that "forced" accurately conveys how these classes were likely designed. I don't think that it constitutes "forced design" when the designers try asking what a divine striker or primal leader would look like and develop the Avenger and Shaman. And clearly the designers were not too concerned about filling out grids because they had Warlocks and Sorcerers as arcane strikers, Rogues and Rangers as martial strikers, Bards and Artificers as arcane leaders, plus we also never had a martial controller after three PHBs. I think that the grid-filling critique is mostly overblown. 🤷‍♂️
 

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