D&D 4E 4e Healing - Is This Right?

[JesterOC]

By the way Jeff, after reading this whole thread even though I don't mind 4E's system, in fact I think it just reduces the more boring aspects of D&D i.e. the let’s wait until we are healed parts. I respect the way you have calmly held firm to your convictions without hitting below the belt. It is so rare, that I thought I would mention that first.

However, I can't help but feel that you actually agree with almost everything here except for how much time it takes to heal and your internal definition of "Long term".

Take this quote.

So how come only one person is answering the question about how quick perfect healing has to be to break your suspension of disbelief? Six hours is obviously okay ... but is two hours still okay? Twenty minutes? Five minutes? Can your suspension of disbelief ever be broken by the swiftness of perfect healing?

I assume you are implying that contracting the time needed to heal is a slippery slope where if this one period of time that you(Jeff) think is too short is acceptable to you(the other poster), then what will it take to make the time a game breaker for you.

I think this is an unfair argument as you have already accepted a period of time that is acceptable to you, which has been shortened by MONTHS compared to previous editions.

While the jump from 3E to 4E is much smaller.

I am going to assume another posters calculation that 2.4 days is about how long it will take to come up to full in a worst case 3.X situation.

Also remember that it is only 6 hours for a best case scenario. In a worst case Scenario it is 24 hours. This is due to the fact that you can only heal in 6 hours once per day and thus if you already healed up in one day you would have to wait 18 hours (in a worst case scenario) plus the 6 hours of rest time. So that means that there is only about 1.4 days of difference.

So it seems to me that this whole argument really does revolve around how much time = long term. I don't think that 1.4 days extra time justifies this argument that 3E has long term healing mechanics and 4E does not. I understand that to you, those 1.4 days make a world of difference. But I hope you can understand that to me that is a much smaller contraction in healing time from AD&D where it would take months of care with nurses and a hospital staff to heal.

In other words is really is all relative and 4E does have a concept of long term impairment, it is just 1.4 days shorter than the previous edition.

Peace,
JesterOC

 

[Jeff Wilder]

By the way Jeff, [...] I respect the way you have calmly held firm to your convictions without hitting below the belt. It is so rare, that I thought I would mention that first.

I appreciate it. I've discovered the hard way that on EN World it's almost always the retaliation that gets whistled, not the provocation, so I've made a studied attempt to ignore that provocation. That might be rare on EN World, but it's damned near miraculous when in comes to me in particular, so I have to admit I'm glad someone noticed.

However, I can't help but feel that you actually agree with almost everything here except for how much time it takes to heal and your internal definition of "Long term".

I think you're exactly correct.

The transition from "weeks" (1E and 2E) to "days" (3E and 3.5) gave me little twinges, admittedly. The transition from "days" to "hours" nauseates me. It's absolutely a matter of degree, you're right; as I've said, 3.5's healing is in no wise realistic ... but what it is is a toss of the bone to Ol' Verisimilitude. 4E has taken the poor old mutt behind the shed and shot him.

So yes, I was trying to point out that the difference between "days" and "hours" to heal is much, much greater than the difference between "hours" and "minutes," and I was trying to get people to recognize and admit that "minutes" would shatter their suspension of disbelief. Not many folks elected to go there, but I have to admit I'm genuinely surprised by the few who have said, "Perfectly healed in five minutes wouldn't bother me."

I am going to assume another posters calculation that 2.4 days is about how long it will take to come up to full in a worst case 3.X situation.

You shouldn't. A 20th level character in 3.5 can easily have 200 HP. If that character is stabilized at -9 HP, it will take him 11 days to recover fully without the aid of magical healing; six days if he's tended full-time by someone with the requisite Heal skill modifier. It's not exactly realistic, but Ol' Veril is wagging his tail at the effort.

Also remember that it is only 6 hours for a best case scenario. In a worse case Scenario it is 24 hours.

True, but does it matter that "only once per day" you can go from "1 HP from Death-with-a-capital-D" to "Dandy-with-a-stolen-capital-D"? Not so much to me. Once per day is once too often.

In other words is really is all realative and 4E does have a concept of long term imparment, it is just 1.4 days shorter than the previous edition.

Hopefully this'll larn ya not to take the word of EN World posters with an agenda. "Trust, but verify." I very much encourage you to check the SRD for the accuracy of my math, above.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

See, I get this. I really, truly do. All I'm asking is that they throw the Verisimilitude Dog a bone.

I'm not sure you need to. People read stories all the time where heroes fight enemy after enemy, getting small cuts here and there but they keep going and they managed to defeat their enemies and move on to the next battle without ever resting.

It only hurts when you describe it as having a hole in your chest that is bleeding immensely and then try to explain why you can fight without any problem at all right away or 6 hours later. It's simple to avoid this simply by always describing an attack as just nicking someone or barely missing.

But they offer (as far as we know) absolutely nothing. Just "oh, sure, you were a hair away from death six hours ago, but now you're dandy!" That's not throwing a bone, except in the sense that we don't need to mention in front of Eric's grandma.

But, seriously, we are ALL a hair away from death every minute of every day. One sword slice is enough to kill me. One fall is enough to kill me. Humans are fairly fragile.

I look at it like this: All people in the world die in one hit from anything. PCs just have plot immunity to being actually hit(or hurt by the things that do hit them). They have huge creature leap on them that would crush normal people and they push them off, shrug and don't seem the slightest hurt by it. They fall 50 feet only to roll when they hit the ground, get up and be perfectly fine when it would break the legs of anyone else.

This "plot immunity" is called hitpoints. It is kept track of in a metagame way to know exactly when a PC is about to die. As the immunity starts to run out, there might be signs that it is beginning to wear thin: The fighter doesn't EASILY avoid attacks of the enemy anymore...they just BARELY miss, an enemy might actually get a cut in on the back of his hand or arm and nicks the surface, when he falls a long way he takes a couple of seconds of moaning in pain to get up and limps for a couple of steps. However, PCs never get long term injuries without special circumstances.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I'm not sure you need to. People read stories all the time where heroes fight enemy after enemy, getting small cuts here and there but they keep going and they managed to defeat their enemies and move on to the next battle without ever resting.

What's the last story you read, or movie you saw, in which a hero was literally a scratch away from death (1 HP), and then six hours later was at 100 percent capacity?

(The last one I read was an issue of Wolverine. Wolverine has a mutant healing factor that will heal him from being literally blown to pieces.)

 

[FireLance]

A 20th level character in 3.5 can easily have 200 HP. If that character is stabilized at -9 HP, it will take him 11 days to recover fully without the aid of magical healing; six days if he's tended full-time by someone with the requisite Heal skill modifier. It's not exactly realistic, but Ol' Veril is wagging his tail at the effort.

Actually, there is a complete bed rest for 24 hours option that allows a character to heal 2 hp per level per day, and a DC 15 Heal check can increase it to 4 hp per level per day. A 20th level character can thus recover 40 hp per day without help, or 80 hp per day with help. This makes it 6 days without help and 3 days with help.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

However, PCs never get long term injuries without special circumstances.

Not anymore. That's exactly the problem. In 4E, there's "perfectly fine" and there's "dead." There's nothing in the middle. That just doesn't work for me in a game that is so much about combat.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Actually, there is a complete bed rest for 24 hours option

Actually, the situation was "worst-case scenario." (Presumably the worst-case scenario in which healing actually occurred, since otherwise it's nonsensical.) I know the 3.5 healing rules pretty well, yeah.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

What's the last story you read, or movie you saw, in which a hero was literally a scratch away from death (1 HP), and then six hours later was at 100 percent capacity?

(The last one I read was an issue of Wolverine. Wolverine has a mutant healing factor that will heal him from being literally blown to pieces.)

All of them. My point is that ANYONE can die in one hit.

I wake up with no injury whatsoever and someone stabs me in the neck, I'm dead. 100% perfect to dead in 1 hit. If that can happen it means I'm ALWAYS a scratch away from death.

If I don't get hit by that dagger and I rest the night, I'm at 100% capacity. If I do get hit by that dagger I'm dead. If someone swings a sword at me and I dodge it 10 times then rest for the night, I'll be at 100% capacity. Even if I figure I couldn't possibly dodge any more because I was extremely tired, I'll be at full capacity tomorrow. Even if someone manages to put a small cut on both my legs, my arms and a nasty one on my face. As long as bleeding has stopped on all of them and they didn't cut any muscles or tendons and I can ignore the pain then I AM at 100% Most cuts heal up in a couple of minutes. Some more severe ones might take a couple of hours with a bandage on. Beyond that, you are likely dead anyways without modern medicine.

The problem only comes if you view being at 1 hitpoint as actually being more hurt than being at 200. If you don't, then recovering to full from a hair away from death is perfectly valid.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

All of them. My point is that ANYONE can die in one hit.

I get your point.

Now if you want it to mean anything to me, let me know which story you read, or movie you saw, in which someone went from "all but dead" to "perfectly fine" in six hours with no world-consistent explanation. If your argument is that people in stories have combats all the time the way HPs work in 4E, and that seems to be your argument, you're going to need to show me the 6HM is some stories or movies. Because I can't think of any.

I don't think you've bothered to read the thread (not that I blame you, really), but I don't have a problem with the abstraction of HP. I have a problem with "all but dead" to "perfectly fine" in six hours with absolutely no attempt at explanation. I have a problem with the Six-Hour Miracle.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Not anymore. That's exactly the problem. In 4E, there's "perfectly fine" and there's "dead." There's nothing in the middle. That just doesn't work for me in a game that is so much about combat.

That's the big thing. Since it IS so much about combat, if your character is incapable of contributing meaningfully to combat you might as well not show up. The average D&D game has PCs doing a multiple day trek through caves while fighting monsters. If there are rules for what happens when you get a severe injury then you need to keep track of them for multiple sessions of playing, applying minuses to all your rolls. If the minuses are anywhere remotely realistic then your character will be next to useless in combat. Try fighting with a broken leg, internal bleeding, sliced tendons, a severe concussion, and the like. It isn't possible and most of the time without a doctor around, you are going to die.

However, if you lower the penalties for being hurt but not dead so they are less realistic then they have little to no effect on combat and it doesn't matter if you are hurt or not except for how long it takes you to recover. If a PC is at risk of dying or suffering penalties then they aren't going to want to continue adventuring. In non-time limited adventures this isn't a big deal. You say "You go back to the inn and you have someone tend to your wounds for the next 3 weeks as you recover from your encounter with the bullette." However, in time limited adventures it simply has 1 of 2 effects: Everyone dies as they push on beyond their ability to survive OR they rest for the required time regardless and a key portion of the adventure is ruined. From a game standpoint NEITHER of these is an acceptable outcome.

If the only in game effect that being hurt has is how long it takes to recover then why not make the game be able to handle both time limited and non-time limited adventures closer to equal?

I would prefer not to have to do what I did that one time in a Living Greyhawk adventure:

PCs: "Wow that was a hard fight. We're down a lot of hitpoints, we rest for the night and we'll solve the crime in the morning."
Me: "Alright, that's the end of the adventure. See you all in 4 hours for the next slot at the convention."
PCs: "Umm, how come?"
Me: "The criminal left 6 hours after you started the adventure. He is long gone by the time you start looking for him."

In 4e, this doesn't happen since everyone spends a couple of healing surges then continues on without the need to rest. I mean, I gave an example of a 1 day time limit, but there have been ones where if the party didn't rescue the kidnapped person within 3 days then the person was dead and the adventure was over and the party decided to rest for 4 days in order to get back hitpoints.