4E is for casuals, D&D is d0med

3e wasn't the PS3, or the Xbox 360. 3e was a hacker's computer. 4e is kind of like the Wii, but the comparison looses some momentum in that the Wii isn't replacing anyone's computer, while 4e is replacing 3e (at least for WotC, if not for everyone).

I'd say the 3e and 4e are game engines, not hardware.

3e's engine was one that amateur programmers had to reverse engineer in order to figure out exactly how things work... and it wasn't always easy.

4e's engine is one that comes with at least some of the source code.
 

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The problem was they did so by trying to basically think up EVERY option you could want and apply a rule to it. This lead to not nessearily rules complexity, but overbearingness.

Yeah, the execution fell flat in some areas. But the goal was a strong one, and its one that has a lot of supporters. "A rule for everything, and everything with a rule" is going to alienate some, and serve others, just like "Only the rules we think you need" is going to alienate some.

It sets up the game so you can play it (which most people I'd say want to do) but also makes toying with it a snap.

Creating monsters isn't the whole game. They don't reveal why some races get +2 to two ability scores that reflect the same defense, but others don't. They don't tell you what damage codes balance out the Immobilized status or Thunder damage. They don't tell you how to set up rules for underwater combat, or how to use NPC's as PC's, or monsters as PC's, or what age your PC starts at, or what job he had before he was an Adventurer, or, if he worships an evil monstrous god, what enemies he can fight and what abilities he can take, or if he's not a divine-powered PC, what choosing a god even means....

3e expressly told you a lot of that out of the starting gate. They also told you how to make monsters (it was just a more involved process).

The 4e rules take into account the kinds of things they found people tend to actually USE at the game table.

But if you're one of those people desperately seeking an aquatic campaign, or one of those who likes having Beholders as PC's, or one of those who likes playing Mundanes who become heroes rather than heroes who become bigger heroes....

They probably know what most poeple want, but they don't know what everyone wants.

3e's solution to that problem was to give you as much as you could possibly need and have you choose to use what you wanted or needed at the time...a toolkit.

4e is not nearly as concerned with those who want to play the game differently (though, as I've said many times, its a continuum, not a binary choice).

It's not simplistic. It's just clear cut.

Simplistic is a value statement. I think everyone using the same basic forumla for powers (at-will/encounter/daily) is simplistic because it doesn't give me the complexity that I desire and that is fun for me.

In that respect, I'm one of those outliers that 4e isn't concerned with. They don't care as much if I'm not having fun with that set up, because MOST people will be having fun.

3e did kind of care, because they gave me new systems for resource management all the freakin' time, so I could play a Warlock or a Fighter if I wanted something straightforward or a Barbarian if I wanted a per-encounter mechanic, or a Wizard if I wanted a pool of per-day abilities, or...whatever.

Regardless of how effective that really was, they supported these outlying playstyles better.

To follow your computer theme... 3e was like Windows or Mac OS... It's made to be what it is. You CAN change it, but doing so without knowing a LOT about the system (with that info only being given to a select few, or those with the time/ability to reverse engineer it) has a LOT of potential hazzards.

I was measuring intent, not execution. 3e wanted to be Open Source D&D, to be a toolkit to tinker with and develop new things with. 4e, like a girl, just wants ta have fun.
 


Kamikaze Midget said:
rules for underwater combat

They're in there.

or how to use NPC's as PC's

What exactly is this supposed to mean?

or what age your PC starts at

That's something for you to determine. They tell you when everyone reaches adulthood, which is all that really matters. From there, you can pick how old your character is, whether you want to be the fresh-faced boy hero, or the old man who took up the calling late in life.

or what job he had before he was an Adventurer

That's a part of character background, which is covered in the first chapter of the PHB.

if he worships an evil monstrous god

That's a part of character background, which is covered in the first chapter of the PHB. More detailed descriptions of the evil gods are covered in the DMG.

what enemies he can fight

That's for the situation to determine. Since not everything has an alignment, enemies can come from almost anywhere now, whether you're good or evil.

and what abilities he can take,

That's covered under classes. Alignment has no effect on that, nor does the deity of choice (except as far as Channel Divinity feats are concerned). Thematic changes to classes (such as evil paladins) are discussed in the DMG.

or if he's not a divine-powered PC, what choosing a god even means....

That's a part of character background, which is covered in the first chapter of the PHB.
 


Kamikaze Midget said:
3e's solution to that problem was to give you as much as you could possibly need and have you choose to use what you wanted or needed at the time...a toolkit.
And 3e's core problem (a bit of pun, eh?) was that the tools in it's toolkit invariably became difficult to use no matter what tried to build with them.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
Creating monsters isn't the whole game. They don't reveal why some races get +2 to two ability scores that reflect the same defense, but others don't. They don't tell you what damage codes balance out the Immobilized status or Thunder damage. They don't tell you how to set up rules for underwater combat, or how to use NPC's as PC's, or monsters as PC's, or what age your PC starts at, or what job he had before he was an Adventurer, or, if he worships an evil monstrous god, what enemies he can fight and what abilities he can take, or if he's not a divine-powered PC, what choosing a god even means....

3e expressly told you a lot of that out of the starting gate. They also told you how to make monsters (it was just a more involved process).
They told you, but the answers they told you were lies...
 

That's something for you to determine.

And 3e gave you instructions for determining it, thus making 3e support this more than 4e does.

That's a part of character background, which is covered in the first chapter of the PHB. More detailed descriptions of the evil gods are covered in the DMG.

Still no feats for 'em...whereas in 3e, the evil gods had domains right in the PHB, thus making 3e more supportive of this than 4e.

That's for the situation to determine. Since not everything has an alignment, enemies can come from almost anywhere now, whether you're good or evil.

But nothing specifically Good to equal the specific Evil of the devils or demons. 3e had LG angels and the like, thus making 3e more supportive of this than 4e.

That's covered under classes. Alignment has no effect on that, nor does the deity of choice (except as far as Channel Divinity feats are concerned). Thematic changes to classes (such as evil paladins) are discussed in the DMG.

But nothing specifically evil like the [EVIL] spells in the 3e PH, thus making 3e more supportive of this than 4e.

And I'm not saying that 4e should, would, or could support this as well or better than 3e did, I'm just saying choices were made and that some people obviously disagree with those choices, and perhaps that disagreement is simply on principle in some cases.

Again, I'm having this strange feeling like I'm describing something blatantly obvious. 4e out of the box ignores some things 3e supported out of the box, this being evidence for 3e being more of a toolkit than 4e is. Some people want 3e's toolkit feel more than they want 4e's ready-to-play game.

Also, the sky is blue, and fish swim in water and fire is hot.
 

hong said:
Peter Seebach says it better than me:

4E and the Wii

And this guy does what exactly? At least when we posting Cory Doctorow bashing 4E, that was someone whose voice actually has some sort of internet cultural significance.

Somehow he construed pretty much everyone, even its detractors, has construed has argued as being very tactical and 'wargame-y' as being more 'casual'? I'm not sure what I think of this. It inevitably carries with it more than its fair share of elitism

Incidentally, if 4E was the Wii, it'd be using minor gimmicks in an attempt to obfuscate the fact that it's been retreading the same tired product for over a decade, with terrible visual presentation.

But, my feelings for Nintendo have little to do with RPGs and D&D...
 

And this guy does what exactly? At least when we posting Cory Doctorow bashing 4E, that was someone whose voice actually has some sort of internet cultural significance.

What's making me feel wierd is that I didn't see it as bashing 4e at all...nor have I seen Cory Doctorow bashing 4e at all (I mean, there was the outcry when it looked like the new STL would have a poison pill, but that wasn't about 4e really)....

Are some 4e fans so paranoid that they see haters 'round every corner?

The cigar is just a cigar, man.
 

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