D&D 4E 4e - Is it really D&D Yet?

[Dragonblade]

Yeah, I have noticed that. I didn't hang out in the forums during those times, but I am starting to see some of that in other posts. What amazes me i think is the number of people who seem ok with the DM having been relegated to 3rd class citizen status.

Myself, I haven't DMed 3.5 in over 18 months because I found it completely untolerable to my preferred playstyle. I have been playing during that time and we seldom run a campaign past 10-12th level because the game just seems untenable starting about that point.

Indeed. One of the DM's in my groups just has a designated DM's assistant who tracks initiatives and spell durations because the DM doesn't want to deal with it anymore. Suffice it to say, he is looking forward to 4e very much.

 

[eleran]

I don't think 4E is really "D&D" to me. D&D-like? Sure. D&D-ish? Yeah. D&D setting? Yah. But then, you can play GURPS with a D&D setting (and even D&D monsters), or BESM, or whatever. Unless the setting/monsters/style is what makes it D&D alone (without the rules), that doesn't make it D&D.

However, that doesn't mean I dislike it or won't buying it. Just, if I was, for some reason obsessed with playing "D&D", I wouldn't be using 4E. For me, 4E looks to be "New Exciting Fantasy Game that is guaranteed to be well-supported and not about wierd superhuman dudes explaining to us how Qin Shihuangdi sucked" (looking at you, Exalted). So I'm still excited for 4E at this stage. I'm just not excited "for D&D". YMWV.

And that's all fine and dandy. But, WHY isn't it D&D to you? I am asking because I have a fascination with things like this that make shared experiences effect different people differently. Probably why I got a degree in Anthropology.

Obviously we all like D&D to some extent to come on here and prattle away about during a workday (or maybe thats just me), and I have tried 4e with the so-far-released materials and it feels liek D&D to me. Maybe newer shinier D&D, but thats to be expected I think.

 

[Felon]

The revamp was necessary for players like myself. While I tie for four of Robin's player types, I'd consider my primary one to be Tactician. I love mechanical optimization of a given roleplay concept. However, both high levels and low levels of 3.5 have the same problem - extreme swinginess. 3E characters are insanely fragile at low levels, and at high levels a two-round combat might take over an hour because of the need of players to protect their "investment", as it were, from the tricksy ways of the dice.

I agree that it was worthwhile to address the problem with characters being nuked on round 1 at low and high levels.

But that just means "a" revamp was necessary. It doesn't mean this particular revamp is good.

Besides, how can you not love the new skill contests?

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. A new take on the opposed skill check system we already had? Or the freeform method described of allowing any skill you want to be used to deal with a given problem (i.e. using History checks to escape pursuit by town guards)? We could do that in 3e too.

 

[Felon]

Indeed. One of the DM's in my groups just has a designated DM's assistant who tracks initiatives and spell durations because the DM doesn't want to deal with it anymore. Suffice it to say, he is looking forward to 4e very much.

We won't have initiative in 4e? Spells won't have durations? What is he looking forward to exactly? Having to keep track of spell effects until the coin toss comes up an NPC's way rather than at a predetermined time?

 

[Seule]

Good to see new posters here, the more the merrier.
I have a similar background to yours D&D since '81, played every edition and pretty much all expansions, etc.) and I didn't have your reaction to DDXP. On the other hand, I've been paying attention to where the 4e design has been going so not much was a shock to me. Sure I didn't know how the mechanics would work, but it all matched the types of things I was expecting... other than the skill resolution mechanic. Loved that.
I liked the game a lot.
Now, it may be that once the full game is released and you try playing it (as I assume you will, at least to test) you'll like it better. Thinks like bloodied tracking and marks may just take a bit of getting used to. It may also be that you'll try it again and swear off it forever, in which case there'll be publishers looking for your gaming dollars too.

I have to respond to one specific point you made:

Where is the individuality of I’m the only elf wizard with this magic item?

In 3.5 (and 3.0) magic items are assumed in your character build. Your elf wizard requires a Headband of Intellect, or he simply won't measure up to another character who has one. Fighters require magic weapons and armor. What cash you get is far better put towards stat boosters and enhancement bonuses (which might as well not exist for all the effect they have in play, they are pure mechanics with no RP potential at all).
It looks like in 4.0 these categories will be effectively obsolete, so you can be free to keep those cool items you find rather than having to sell them for an extra +1, just to keep up with the Hrothgarses. In a 1st level playtest we didn't see many cool items, but I'm hoping that the minds that brought us the Magic Item Compendium can do it again, and keep putting out cool items that your character can be proud to own, rather than just needing to perform adequately.

--Penn

 

[Stalker0]

I am very disappointed with the general response on this thread. Guys, I'm pro 4e, and of course want to defend the new system. But the man has provided us a viewpoint based on actual experience with the system...which is far more than most of us have to offer.

As for the OP's comments, the only thing I will defend is the fact that the playtest is 1st level. I know now that I've gotten accustomed to 3e, 1st level is down right mundane in many ways mechanically. So far, from the classes that have been presented, it seems that characters have more things to do mechanically than 1st level 3.5 classes. And of course, a player can always add as much flavor and window dressing to a character regardless of the system.

But my opinion of course is based on theory, not on first hand experience, so I will always tip my hat to those who have actually tried the game, and I will eagerly wait the day when I can join the ranks, and then give a true informed opinion on 4e.

 

[Stalker0]

Spells won't have durations

From what we've seen so far, the answer is no...at least in the 3e sense. In 4e, it appears you have 3 kinds of durations.

Save ends. A round per round spell that has no set limit, simply a saving throw roll.
Encounter. The spell lasts the encounter. No more, no less.
Longer duration. This is the fuzzy one, we haven't heard much about this. We know fly can last for up to 5 minutes. Who knows how long rituals last.

But at least for combat purposes, dms will no longer have to track durations.

 

[abeattie]

And that's all fine and dandy. But, WHY isn't it D&D to you? I am asking because I have a fascination with things like this that make shared experiences effect different people differently. Probably why I got a degree in Anthropology.

Obviously we all like D&D to some extent to come on here and prattle away about during a workday (or maybe thats just me), and I have tried 4e with the so-far-released materials and it feels liek D&D to me. Maybe newer shinier D&D, but thats to be expected I think.

I suppose it depends on where you focused.

There is no "platonic form" of DnD out there to be found (though many seem to think there are). To me, there are three elements to a DnD setting 1) Dungeons!, 2) Dragons!, 3) a group of classes which MUST include a) fighter, b) rogue/thief c) wizard d) cleric.

d20s and proficiencies, skills, feats, Thac0, even (dare i say) AC and HPs are all about the <i>how</i> not the <i>what</i>!

If you want to talk about differing visions of DnD, we've always had those. There has always been the Monty Haul v. RPer v. Tactician v. Teen Fantasy splits -- now we've added the ability to make anime characters. (which is I think the big split from older editions, since the mechanics and the functioning of talents and feats don't match the game *I* play every sunday night (WoW)).

Although it would be awesome if every talent in WoW gave me a unique power, and if they had enough powers that no two characters in the same guild were identical (they don't, and every class has only two or three usable paths, the rest being sub-optimal are scrapped)

But now I ramble.

Anyway -- it may not be Your DnD, it may not even be MY DnD, but it will soon be an option that is there, a game to play if you decide to give it a go. For what it's worth, there hasn't been anything I've seen that would break my campaign lines.. sure wizards are different, and fighters are almost as cool as wizards now -- do we really need to tell half the gaming table that they're just not as cool as the other half past level 5?

-Adam

 

[EricNoah]

And that's all fine and dandy. But, WHY isn't it D&D to you?

Ok, I'll bite. I looked at the abilities in the Warlord article that was posted recently. I could understand them. But on some level they simply did not compute. I couldn't see (in my head) what the effect was supposed to look like. In some sense, it was like reading a foreign language.

Now, could I learn that language and adapt to it? Sure. Just like when I abandoned 2E for 3E -- which in my opinon, was such a huge leap that I really consider 3E to be a separate game. I was more than ready to switch, and I spent a year of my life getting myself into the groove of the new game ahead of time so I would be ready for it.

I can totally see someone having the experience I had with the warlord powers and saying, "That's not D&D." It's not pushing the same mental buttons, it's not tickling the same spots in my brain.

 

[eleran]

We won't have initiative in 4e? Spells won't have durations? What is he looking forward to exactly? Having to keep track of spell effects until the coin toss comes up an NPC's way rather than at a predetermined time?

I have a feeling he means the player tracks spell durations in relation to initiative in order to make sure spells last the right amount of time.

In 4e the save mechanic actually acts as a timer when a spell effect does not have a set duration (and so far none of the targeted ones do).