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D&D 3E/3.5 4E reminded me how much I like 3E

LostSoul

Adventurer
I'm not sure how you came away with that based on what I said above.

It appears I assumed that you did the same thing with Feats as you did with Skills. As in, "My Ninja needs +2 to make this save? POOF! Iron Will!"

EDIT: And this accounts for "putting myself in the mind of the NPC" again, and not, "Screw the players." So for example if the PCs have used Scry>Buff>Teleport, the BBEG might prepare Forbiddance and/or Dimensional Anchor.

So it comes from the point of view of "What spells would this NPC generally have prepared?" and not "What spell would help this NPC right now in this situation?"

That clears up my confusion. I don't think that's cheap.

edit: Just wanted to say: Even though you could have done this sort of thing in 3e, where would you get the idea that you should? Is this sort of thing supported in the books - e.g. "This is how you should handle monster stats - playing loose with the rules"?
 
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Spatula

Explorer
It appears I assumed that you did the same thing with Feats as you did with Skills. As in, "My Ninja needs +2 to make this save? POOF! Iron Will!"
What he's doing with skills is assuming a NPC has used their skill points wisely. Smart spellcasters have Concentration maxed out, or at least to the point where they could never fail a defensive casting check. Smart mobile striker types have enough ranks in Tumble to move around without provoking OAs. There's only so many skills that have a combat effect to begin with, it's not exactly a stretch to assume that NPCs have the ones available to them maxed out... just like the PCs probably do.

For combat NPCs, I assume they have max ranks of useful skills that are available to them (perception, Concentration if a caster, Intimidate if a brute, stealth & mobility skills if a sneaky-type, etc). They probably have other skills as well, but those skills won't have an impact on the fight and so are not important. Making these assumptions vs spending every single skill point isn't screwing the players or pulling cheap stunts out of your butt, it's a shorthand for a result you would have arrived at anyway, with less work involved.
 

Aaron L

Hero
4E made me miss 1E. Seriously[i/] miss it. While I dearly love 3E and the degree of character customization it allows, one thing that I have learned to truly despise is the idea of Game Balance.

Game Balance NOW says that every character must be of equal power at every level or the game is broken and bad. This is a concept that began with 3E. Back in 1E (and 2E) some classes were just inherently more powerful than other classes because, simply, []that's the way it is
in the fantasy novels and myths and legends that D&D comes from.

Why in the world should Fighters be just as powerful as Wizards? Making it that way simply for the metagame reason of "balance" is, as I've come to see it in the past year or so, as ugly a cludge as I've ever seen. Does this not fly in the face of the genre itself, that a sword swinging warrior face down any menace that a mighty archmage can do?

What has become of the moment in the story where "Swords are no more use here;" the point when it becomes obvious that it's down to the sorcerer calling on his deepest magical reserves to do battle with the noisome eldritch obscenity which mere mortals can do naught but quake in fear of?

I MISS those days. I MISS that simulation and recreation of the fantasy novels and legends I love to read. I MISS keeping track of how many gold pieces of encumbrance I was carrying, and distinguishing between weather I was wearing High Hard Boots or Low Hard Boots.

Something that I ALSO miss from 1E is that you DID NOT play a class expecting to be HANDED a "fair share" of the limelight on a platter, but you played a class because you wanted to play that particular class and if you got a moment in the limelight is was because you earned it, not because every class was tailored to be just as powerful as every other class at every level. Magic-Users were more powerful than Fighters because that's how it is; this is the way magic and the supernatural has been portrayed in fantasy literature, myth, and legend for hundreds and thousands of years.

The game balance back then came in the form of a (logically) slower progression of the more powerful classes, because they used the novel concept that learning to do things which were more powerful were also harder to learn! Learning to bend the fabric of realty with words and gestures was harder to do than learning to skillfully wield a sword!

This uneven progression speed also meant that classes that were inherently weaker would also progress faster and actually be higher level, making the characters of those classes paradoxically weaker, and yet at the same time stronger, then characters of the more powerful classes.

And looking back on it now it was wonderful. Game balance then meant that the rules were correctly modeling the source material of the genre, NOT that all of the classes were equally powerful at every level to ensure that everyone got an equal share of cool things to do every single game session. Because we realized that the coolness of your character came NOT from the rules, but from it's personality. We accepted that the Wizard would be more powerful than the Warrior simply because magic is POWERFUL! And if you wanted to play a powerful character, you chose to play a powerful class, you didn't choose to play a Fighter and then complain that he was weaker than the Magic-User.

You played a Fighter because you wanted to play a Fighter, dammit[/] and to the Hells with how powerful he was going to be in relation to the Paladin or the Monk; you made the character cool by giving him an interesting personality or backstory, and if you wanted him to be cool and get the limelight than you had to actually BE CLEVER and DO something cool, rather than hitting your automatically refreshing "Cool Maneuver" button once per encounter.


After playing 4E for a while I am realizing that I really do not like it very much at all. I miss 3E, and would like to stick with that, but my DM has declared that 3E is now too cumbersome to ever run (or even play) again and he can no longer even fathom why he ever liked it at all. And this has made me rather upset, because I see myself in the not too distant future rapidly losing interest in playing D&D AT ALL if it has to be 4E. But my ONE saving light is that my DM has ALSO said that he has been missing 1E and really wanting to play t, and that we WILL be playing a 1E campaign some time in the near future. Hopefully one that will run into the high teens at the least, as our previous 1E campaign took our characters from 1st to between 25th and 28th levels, over the course of 5 years or so.

And I will be greatly looking forward to having a party composed of characters of classes of varying power and level, and having to rely on teamwork, ingenuity, interesting character personalities and good role playing rather than blatant and boring "Cool Moment" buttons to be pressed one a fight or once a day.


And I have an absolutely RAD Ranger with an 18/98 strength who's double specialized with the bastard sword and has a suit of field plate and is just waiting to learn his first Magic-User and Druid spells, just raring to go!! (Remember how field and full plate armor worked in Unearthed Arcana? Man that was just SO cool!)


But as for 4E, I'm afraid I'll merely be tolerating it between real games, where characters are defined by their cool personalities and not by their cool abilities, and a Fighter's attack with his sword is in No WAY equal to even a weak Wizard's spell.



And thus ends my little rant. I'm going to go design the coat of arms for my Keoish Ranger now.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
It appears I assumed that you did the same thing with Feats as you did with Skills. As in, "My Ninja needs +2 to make this save? POOF! Iron Will!"

No. Not at all like that. In fact, I can't recall an example of ever actually swapping out a feat.

But I can certainly envision a case where I would rather that my big solo Ogre have Power Attack and Cleave (so that he can harry the whole party) instead of Weapon Focus and Toughness, I'll do that.

So it comes from the point of view of "What spells would this NPC generally have prepared?" and not "What spell would help this NPC right now in this situation?"

That clears up my confusion. I don't think that's cheap.

Cool.
 

AllisterH

First Post
Eh, my group must've been weird in 1e/2e.

We didn't play classes that we wanted, but what the DICE said we rolled.

Yeah, yeah, kind of a "why the hell did you do this" but we always thought we had to follow the rules. It wasn't until the Complete splatbooks that we actually went on to point-buy and actually picked a class because we wanted to actually play that class.

Aaron L, if you would prefer 3E, you could always suggest to the DM that you are willing to DM it.
 

pemerton

Legend
The game balance back then came in the form of a (logically) slower progression of the more powerful classes, because they used the novel concept that learning to do things which were more powerful were also harder to learn! Learning to bend the fabric of realty with words and gestures was harder to do than learning to skillfully wield a sword!

This uneven progression speed also meant that classes that were inherently weaker would also progress faster and actually be higher level, making the characters of those classes paradoxically weaker, and yet at the same time stronger, then characters of the more powerful classes.
I don't see the point of this - that is, I don't see any functional difference between saying "Class X and Class Y are equally powerful with 50,000 XP, although X is level 5 and Y is level 6", and saying "Class X and Class Y are equally powerful with 50,000 XP, and both are level 5". Provided hit dice, to hit progression etc are appropriately adjusted in the translation from one to the other, these strike me as functionally equivalent. (Roger Moore made this point in an article about hit dice per XP in one of the early-ish Dragon magazines.)

I have an absolutely RAD Ranger with an 18/98 strength who's double specialized with the bastard sword and has a suit of field plate and is just waiting to learn his first Magic-User and Druid spells, just raring to go!!

<snip>

But as for 4E, I'm afraid I'll merely be tolerating it between real games, where characters are defined by their cool personalities and not by their cool abilities
Is there anything about your Ranger other than his cool abilities and equipment that make him absolutely RAD?
 


The ultimate reason why game balance is important because it is a role-playing GAME.

If you want sorcerers and wizards to be more powerful then fighters in 4E, give them a higher level per default. But I suppose that won't fly with most players "Wait, if I play a Fighter, I start at level 1, but if I play a Wizard, I start at level 8?".
It is the "Jedi"-syndrome in most Star Wars games - on screen, Jedi appear uberpowerful because of their abilities. Hence any real Starwars game must have Jedi as being the most powerful class/race/whatever. but there is another approach - Jedi just have undergone an incredible amount of training. If you look at the movie material, Luke doesn't seem that powerful compared to his comrades. It is different in the prequel trilogy - where every Jedi has been trained to be a Jedi since childhood! Of course these Jedi are stronger then the average humanoid or even a trained soldier - most soldiers receive their first combat training as an adolescent or adult!

And the same can be true for magic in RPGs - if a wizard is extremely powerful, it is because he has studied the arcana arts that long - he has a higher level then most people. But if someone spends the same effort in his martial training as the wizard did in his arcane abilities, why shouldn't he be just as powerful?

---

You can't make a Fighter more interesting then a Wizard just by roleplaying. All the roleplaying efforts I spend for my Fighter I could also spend for a Wizard. If my Fighter character shines through his personality, why not the Wizard character? You can't achieve any degree of balance here.
The only reason someone would wand to play a mundane character is because the personality he wants to describe is that of a mundane character - but that doesn't make it inherently more interesting then the personality of a character with magical abilities. And if I spend half the time of the session in combat scenarios, the wizard character with an interesting personality is still more enjoyable then the fighter character with an interesting personality. The wizard player has 100 % fun, the fighter player only 50 %. (worst case scenario ;) ).
 

Steely Dan

Banned
Banned
You could say, in 3e, "He's a monster, he's different." That should suffice, even if it is no different than, "Because I am the DM, and I say so."

A lot of players, especially in 3rd Ed, wouldn't be too keen on either of those answers.

Look, I know what you're saying, about DM authority, I have been a DM (always) since 1987, but 3rd Ed really fostered a bit of a player pleasing/DMs must answer for everything vibe, IMO.

 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Look, I know what you're saying, about DM authority, I have been a DM (always) since 1987, but 3rd Ed really fostered a bit of a player pleasing/DMs must answer for everything vibe, IMO.


It certainly did. Was this codified in the rules somewhere, or did it emerge naturally?

And if it emerged on its own, whose "fault" is it? And why don't you just... stop?



(Also, I don't know what you're doing changing the color, size, and font of every one of your replies, but it really makes an annoying mess of trying to quote you. Oh, and it doesn't show up anyway.)
 

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