D&D 3E/3.5 4E Simulationism: Did 3.5E Really Do That Good of a Job?

[Celtavian]

re

Have ... you played Ars Magica?

By the by, in a "Class n' Level" game one of the ideas (I guess) is that for an equal amount of XP each class should by roughly equal.

Want Casters to be the most powerful class in the game? I have 2 simple houserules that will work for any game, at any time.
1) Cap non-casters (in 4e at 10th level, 3.5 at 6th)
2) Give caster twice the xp

Same result.

I like the high level game. Warriors and rogues still have their purpose. I am more concerned about balance of purpose than balance of power.

 

[hong]

Standard trope of fantasy novels. Gandalf was the strongest in Lord of the Rings.

DMPCs don't count.

Raistlin in Dragonlance. Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk both ruled by wizards.

 

[DandD]

We never saw Gandalf leveling up, starting as some kind of weakling-apprentice mage. He was already some kind of angel-being in human guise, so...

Raistlin I don't know, and I don't care. And the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk being ruled by powerful wizards is one of the harsh critiques that people mention all the time. I always wondered why those Azoun-Kings of Cormyr never were wizards or high-level clerics, but simply weak-ass fighters.

D&D is a game with friends foremost. Everybody should have fun, all the time. The game designers saw that the only time everybody seemed to have fun all the time was at the range of level 8-14, where wizards didn't totally suck anymore, and the fighters still were somehow usefull.

If the game designers manage to accomplish this goal from level 1 to level 30, than hooray. If they don't, oh well, at least, they tried to change it.

 

[Simon Marks]

I can't think of many fantasy novels where wizards or wizard types didn't rule the roost.

I can.

All the Conan Books, Le Mort D'Arthur, The Worm Ouroboros, Journey into the West and the Water Margin.

I guess, however, that all these books come from before D&D was written - so I think some more modern books are needed; so...

Magic Kingdom for Sale (Sold), Rats and Gargoyles, the entire Chronicles of Pern, Elvenbane, Discworld, the Myth Series (yes, hero is a wizard but the most powerful are the traders), the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, The Fionavar Tapestry, Tigana, His Dark Materials, Dragon Prince....

Now, these are just books that I've read and so I may misremember some of them (it's been a long time)

Magic, in novels, is a plot device - usually.

In anycase, if you want to have Magic Users to be more powerful than 'normal folk' then be my guest. It's easy to unbalance a game. The base game, however, should be ... equal.

 

[Steely Dan]

I would call D&D (all editions):


Simunarrative or Simularratavist or Narratavist

 

[Brown Jenkin]

So what do you say to all the people playing non casters?

Sorry, you guys don't get to have fun or be as meaningful anymore, the wizard and the cleric will take it from here?

Making sure everyone has a meaningful role to play is important. In fact, its probably the most important thing.

Also, casters are never a weak class. Even at 1st level. Not with things like Sleep available.

In our group we have a couple of players who like playing fighters because they are simple damage machines. They have had plenty of chances to experiment with other classes but choose not too. They have never expressed any feelings of being useless or not meaningful. Personally I have problems seeing them be happy playing the 4E fighter with all its options.

 

[glass]

Where does the idea that 4e is going to be worse for Simulationism than 3e?

IMO, at least, the most glaringly anti-simulationist things in 3.x are:

• The disconnect between what hp represent when you are taking damamge and what they represent when you are recovering (and different types of recovery are different from each other too).
• The fact that if you are wielding a khopesh, it is much easier to trip a fresh enemy with it than it is to cut them.
• The use of the same combat manouvre over and over again.
• The ability to jump of cliff with no possibility of injury.

From what we have seen, 4e fixes the first three, and makes a (small) step forward with the fourth.


glass.

 

[catsclaw]

How would a town react to Eladrin? Would the guard shoot to kill in even the most minor of crimes, knowing they can't be held?

Well, that would explain all the foreign tourists getting shot in New York City for parking violations.

 

[Lizard]

Well, that would explain all the foreign tourists getting shot in New York City for parking violations.

Hey, if you knew the guy in the funny hat could teleport out of jail, what would you do if you were a cop?

(Of course, the Greyhawk ACLU will be all over the town guard for their lead-lined windowless cells...)

 

[TwoSix]

In our group we have a couple of players who like playing fighters because they are simple damage machines. They have had plenty of chances to experiment with other classes but choose not too. They have never expressed any feelings of being useless or not meaningful. Personally I have problems seeing them be happy playing the 4E fighter with all its options.

If it bothers them that much, it will be dirt-simple to make a house ruled fighter that only gains a handful of at-will powers and that's it. 4e class design looks excessively modular.