4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

Pssthpok

First Post
It's
a) going to be the standard. If you don't want to play it, no one is forcing you but you will surely be left behind insofar as material support and new product. Ask th 2E dinosaurs how that's been treating them.
b) still a pen-and-paper game; no one is forcing you to use the online supplemental materials. And it's not like it's an MMORPG, either; the virtual tabletop is a way for people to use a grid and throw dice together on the internet rather than anonymous dicerolling programs and whateveryou'vegot. Hell, I use a computer for 3rd Edition... what difference is it to me if WotC has stuff I can buy online that lets me make a little 3D guy or lets me peruse digital copies of my own books. :\
c) taking into account, from my understanding, what the majority of their fanbase and the millions of manhours of playtesting have shown them. If you fall into the minority and have nothing but venomous bias and gainsaying, well... sorry, lads. 4th Ed is a reality now and I have a feeling that most people will make the switch; it's just a matter of how far behind the curve they're going to be when they do.
d) looking like it actually gets back to what the majority of editions of the game have held true to: skills in a "proficiency" system, simpler combat, simpler statblocks. So, from an essential, holistic approach, it's more to the core of D&D than 3rd Ed, which for all intents and purposes has deviated so far from 1E and 2E that, as we experienced 8 years ago, it is utterly unlike any other edition of D&D. 4E looks like it's done experimenting and is ready to present itself as a cleaner, funner, more manageable game all around.

Just because, for some reason, you might like the current skill system (because figuring out all those points per level and X Int, at whatever class makes you good at math, or whatever) doesn't mean that the streamlined skills is a "dumbing down" of the rules. Consider it a matter of cutting the fat. The same goes for anything else that WotC has trimmed and simplified.
 

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dante58701

Banned
Banned
Welcome to the flight of self delusion. Our self appointed Captian Psstpoke was just announcing our arrival into the realm of nightmare and has opted for the lemming vote.

Is that a bit over the top...sure. But 4.0 can kiss my hairy white ass. Oversimplification is more sycophantic catering to stupid people who can't even be bothered to learn a little mathematics. The point of D&D was to have fun AND intellectually stimulate all the bored intelligent people who have better things to do than suck it up and do what the lemmings want to do.

Im definitely going to continue my venom spewing on this issue, because venom spewing is a definite necessity. Someone needs to stick up for the intellectuals. :):):):) oversimplification. 3.5 is already simple. If it gets any simpler it's just going to get stupid. And I like those feats and skill ranks the way they are. WOTC can bite me.

And who the hell needs more material from WOTC. They've already printed all the books any gamer could ever ask for. Why would anyone need more than a half a dozen gaming books anyways (I personally have a couple hundred...but that's just me). This is definitely a marketing scam for their online crap.

Im definitely going to boycott any and all 4.0 products. I hope 4.0 drags WOTC and HASBRO under. They deserve that much. Then Gary Gygax can buy it back and salvage what little is left of HIS game.
 
Last edited:

ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
dante58701 said:
Then Gary Gygax can buy it back and salvage what little is left of HIS game.

But...Gary has spoken often in recent years about how he prefers rules-light games and feels 3e was too complex. There is a dichotomy in what you're saying.
 

Holy Bovine

First Post
dante58701 said:
Welcome to the flight of self delusion. Our self appointed Captian Psstpoke was just announcing our arrival into the realm of nightmare and has opted for the lemming vote.

Is that a bit over the top...sure. But 4.0 can kiss my hairy white ass. Oversimplification is more sycophantic catering to stupid people who can't even be bothered to learn a little mathematics. The point of D&D was to have fun AND intellectually stimulate all the bored intelligent people who have better things to do than suck it up and do what the lemmings want to do.

Im definitely going to continue my venom spewing on this issue, because venom spewing is a definite necessity. Someone needs to stick up for the intellectuals. :):):):) oversimplification. 3.5 is already simple. If it gets any simpler it's just going to get stupid. And I like those feats and skill ranks the way they are. WOTC can bite me.

And who the hell needs more material from WOTC. They've already printed all the books any gamer could ever ask for. Why would anyone need more than a half a dozen gaming books anyways (I personally have a couple hundred...but that's just me). This is definitely a marketing scam for their online crap.

Im definitely going to boycott any and all 4.0 products. I hope 4.0 drags WOTC and HASBRO under. They deserve that much. Then Gary Gygax can buy it back and salvage what little is left of HIS game.

Are you really this stupid or do you have software that helps you?
 

Holy Bovine

First Post
dante58701 said:
:):):):) online play...it's just more Evercrack. We need that like we need to have our genitalia removed and shoved through a blender. Like I stated earlier. IT'S A HUGE WASTE OF OUR TIME AND MONEY!!!

3.5 is definitely my limit. Anything beyond that is pure bullshiit.

Well you do need that though!
 

jareddm

First Post
In terms of the Immortals Handbook, I think it's better to stick with 3.5. It is what we're familiar and knowledgeable about. Things become much more difficult, especially when it comes to editing, when not everyone is an expert and can spot a misplaced number on a stat block from 50 yards.

I also don't see any reason to switch the moment 4e comes out. Or ever really. When 3e was first coming out, there was still a fair amount of 2e material that was being thought up. I think this same overlap in material will occur well after 4e is released.
 

Axolotl

First Post
Everybody calm down we all know that Dante says stupid things can we just either use reasoned arguements or just don't post anything. I currantly know nothing about 4ED as I've just been on holiday however. This does pose a serious problem for the Immortals Handbook. Moving to 4ED will help in the long run but it means redoing whats already been done, which is very bad. Also how well intergrated are epic rules? If they are part of the core rules then hopefully they will learn from the mistakes of 3ED. However if there are no currant epic rules then Upper Krust will have to design some new ones, which will then be replaced by official ones causing everything to be redone again. How easy will the immortals handbook be to cnvert to 4Ed that is the most important question.

I think that all future work should be done in 4Ed however it would be advisable to wait till it comes for you to decide.
 

GQuail

Explorer
Pssthpok said:
Just because, for some reason, you might like the current skill system (because figuring out all those points per level and X Int, at whatever class makes you good at math, or whatever) doesn't mean that the streamlined skills is a "dumbing down" of the rules. Consider it a matter of cutting the fat. The same goes for anything else that WotC has trimmed and simplified.

I'm not necesarilly against 4th Ed, I should add: I'm definatly picking it up, and as heavilly invested in 3.X as I am I wouldn't put it past this edition to take over if some of the promises they've made come true. (Certainly, speeding up skills is one area I would like) Many of the OMG A NEW EDITION OH NOES!!!11!!!1ONE cries fall flat to me too: But I still think that moving this project to another game system is not the way to go, more because it's a question of a lot more work being done and a longer timescale before it finally sees print.

Still, without seeing 4th Ed, I have no idea how much conversion work is required: or even if this project would ne necesary at all. I mean, didn't this whole thing basically grow out of unhappiness as to how 3.0s Deities & Demigods dealt with deities? The rejigging of the core rules seems to include changes of what Xth level means, for any given level: without seeing the finished package, this might mean Upper_Krust is actually comparatively happy with it. Unlikely, but, hey...
 

Pssthpok

First Post
It's true that, unlike the move from 3.0 to 3.5, we don't really know that "levels" are worth in 4th Ed. Very likely the power is relatively the same (possibly stronger in 4E), but we just don't know enough to say anything.

What it comes down to for UK is whether or not he wants to finish Ascension and go on hiatus (a good idea, I think; the man needs time to convert his notes to text files without having to worry about getting an update done in time) while we wait for 4E. Then, when it comes out and if it's a better system (and I think it will be), Krusty can opt into converting what needs it.

That's the problem with huge, drag-ass projects like this (no offense, UK): you can't finish them in time before there's a sweeping change of the machine with which you're working. I for one feel bad for UK, but if he'd let some lackeys in to do the gruntwork he'd be farther along than he is now, plain and simple. I've seen other D&D boards/websites do that: collaborate with others - people that can be trusted, I certainly imagine - so as to fraction the actual work that needs doing. I UK decides to convert to 4th Edition I would hope he'd consider that avenue.
 

scruffygrognard

Adventurer
dante58701 said:
Welcome to the flight of self delusion. Our self appointed Captian Psstpoke was just announcing our arrival into the realm of nightmare and has opted for the lemming vote.

Is that a bit over the top...sure. But 4.0 can kiss my hairy white ass. Oversimplification is more sycophantic catering to stupid people who can't even be bothered to learn a little mathematics. The point of D&D was to have fun AND intellectually stimulate all the bored intelligent people who have better things to do than suck it up and do what the lemmings want to do.

Im definitely going to continue my venom spewing on this issue, because venom spewing is a definite necessity. Someone needs to stick up for the intellectuals. :):):):) oversimplification. 3.5 is already simple. If it gets any simpler it's just going to get stupid. And I like those feats and skill ranks the way they are. WOTC can bite me.

And who the hell needs more material from WOTC. They've already printed all the books any gamer could ever ask for. Why would anyone need more than a half a dozen gaming books anyways (I personally have a couple hundred...but that's just me). This is definitely a marketing scam for their online crap.

Im definitely going to boycott any and all 4.0 products. I hope 4.0 drags WOTC and HASBRO under. They deserve that much. Then Gary Gygax can buy it back and salvage what little is left of HIS game.
I'm not as angry as Dante BUT think that 4.0 is moving the game into the World of Warcraft realm and moving away from D&D's roots (purposely).

The 30-level advancement, move away from Greyhawk as being the core world, the Mortal Combat-esque character abilities, and the heavy reliance on online content (which must be subscribed to at $10/month) are WotC spitting in the eye of D&D's roots and D&D's core fans.

I will definitely be sticking with 3.5 (and am encouraging my gaming group to do the same) and Castles & Crusades (MY D&D game of choice at this point).

To get back on-topic, I'd be more interested in you made the Immortal's Handbook for 3.5 and/or C&C than for 4.0.
 

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