4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Axolotl mate!

If you're doing it this way then you just need to do a progression up until say 60th level for each class and then go on to the blander 3rd edition style, by that point it won't matter that the mortal class is bland as they should be getting immortal levels as well.

Why does it not matter at 60th but it matters at 30th?

The way you're suggesting you're forced to become divine at 30th level which some people I'm sure some people will not want.

I wonder do they understand why they don't want it though?

Then if you make an immortal level worth three mortal levels. A 100th level wizard equals a 30th mortal level / 20th immortal level god. I don't see the problem here.

The problem is the math.

100th-level = 100 hit dice and most things stem from hit dice/level. Which means that if I have 100 for a mortal my window of interaction is something like 82-118, which means that my 50 Hit Dice god needs compensating bonuses AND ability scores to put him on a par. If we do all that we are right back to 3rd Edition with nothing learnt.

 

[Axolotl]

Howdy Axolotl mate!

Hi thanks for replying.

Why does it not matter at 60th but it matters at 30th?

I don't mind it being a "bland" infinite progression from 30th level. However as you ponted out it is dull not to get any new class features. However at 60th level (using the suggested system) most people will be gaining immortal levels and as such they will be gaining new immortal class features and as such gaining mortal ones as well is less important.

I wonder do they understand why they don't want it though?

They want more powerful gods than you? They want mortals to be able to challenge gods? They want the players to fight abomanations and powerful demons without being gods? This way allows the DM more freedom about when the players become Immortal.

The problem is the math.

100th-level = 100 hit dice and most things stem from hit dice/level. Which means that if I have 100 for a mortal my window of interaction is something like 82-118,

Well considering we know so little about the system it could easily belarger than this.

which means that my 50 Hit Dice god needs compensating bonuses AND ability scores to put him on a par

Which he already had. If he needs those to compete then the 3:1 immortal to mortal scale is of. He has these abilities so he's equal to a 100th level charicter not the other way around.

If we do all that we are right back to 3rd Edition with nothing learnt.

Personally I was happy with the 3.5 system and it would be largely workable with the more annoying elements removed.

One thing I've been thinking about is how does an Divine being gain Existentiance Points, Bosonance Points and Ontologence Points?

How would the Immortal's Handbook be structured for 4th edition? Some version of the ELH would probably be nessecery.

I notice that the disiple and prophet have yet to be mentioned in this thread (I think) would they work as some king of prestige class for pre-30th level charicters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Axolotl dude!

Hi thanks for replying.

Its what I do!

I don't mind it being a "bland" infinite progression from 30th level. However as you ponted out it is dull not to get any new class features. However at 60th level (using the suggested system) most people will be gaining immortal levels and as such they will be gaining new immortal class features and as such gaining mortal ones as well is less important.

But with the magic of copy and paste...

However at 31st level (using the suggested system) most people will be gaining immortal levels...

Now, my point is, whats wrong with making the Immortal progression 31-60?

They want more powerful gods than you?

Power does not necessarily just equate to bigger numbers.

They want mortals to be able to challenge gods?

What I am suggesting INCREASES mortal vs. immortal interaction.

They want the players to fight abomanations and powerful demons without being gods?

You'll be able to do that with epic 21st-30th-level mortals.

This way allows the DM more freedom about when the players become Immortal.

That type of open-endedness is ultimately self-defeating though.

Well considering we know so little about the system it could easily belarger than this.

Possibly. But almost certainly NOT.

Which he already had.

Of course, because thats how the systems designed. But a lot of those powers are simply mathmatical rather than actually allowing the immortal to actually 'do' anything.

If he needs those to compete then the 3:1 immortal to mortal scale is of.

There is no mortal scale above 30th though. I'm talking about the raw power of an immortal level in comparison to a mortal level.

He has these abilities so he's equal to a 100th level charicter not the other way around.

Irrelevant. The point I am trying to illustrate is that the higher in Hit Dice you go the greater the possibility you will escape the d20 roll, which then breaks the game down.

Therefore the goal is to drop Hit Dice as much as possible while still retaining something akin to overall power.

But if we allow infinite mortal levelling then we can't do that, which means you may as well play 3.5.

Personally I was happy with the 3.5 system and it would be largely workable with the more annoying elements removed.

Its a maths test. I didn't go far enough in fixing 3rd Edition.

One thing I've been thinking about is how does an Divine being gain Existentiance Points, Bosonance Points and Ontologence Points?

...and what are your conclusions?

How would the Immortal's Handbook be structured for 4th edition?

Similar to Ascension but with the Immortal Templates becoming Classes and the Portfolios/Abilities becoming Talent Trees.

Some version of the ELH would probably be nessecery.

Like a Bestiary, Magic Section, and Campaign Section...

I notice that the disiple and prophet have yet to be mentioned in this thread (I think) would they work as some king of prestige class for pre-30th level charicters.

Not sure yet, but I was thinking Disciple would be for Paragons (Level 11-20) and Prophets would be for Epic (21-30) characters.

 

[Axolotl]

Hi Axolotl dude!

Hi!

Its what I do!

And you do it well.

But with the magic of copy and paste...

However at 31st level (using the suggested system) most people will be gaining immortal levels...

Fine by me you're the one who said they didn't like the blandness of 3rd edition epic. Why is that? And why when posting you're revised classes did you go up to level 40?

Now, my point is, whats wrong with making the Immortal progression 31-60?

It removes almost all mortal/immortal interaction as all immortals are more powerful than all mortals as standerd.

Power does not necessarily just equate to bigger numbers.

Ok then, they want a bigger gulf between mortal and immortal.

What I am suggesting INCREASES mortal vs. immortal interaction.

How so?

You'll be able to do that with epic 21st-30th-level mortals.

How does even a 30th level charicter begin to challenge an Abomanation? They're the equivelent to a quasi-deity (level 36 using you're rough calculations) but genrals have a power level closer to that of a demigod. (level 41) so using you're idea that each immortal level is equal to 3 mortal levels its (for the non-divine players) a level 55 (42 at the lowest).

That type of open-endedness is ultimately self-defeating though.

How so?

Possibly. But almost certainly NOT.

From what I've read on adventure design they're trying to make it so that ten goblins are as much of a threat to a 10th level party as one goblin is to a first level party. and since the entire XP and encounter level systems are based around this not increasing the window of interaction as much as possible would be nonsensical

Of course, because thats how the systems designed. But a lot of those powers are simply mathmatical rather than actually allowing the immortal to actually 'do' anything.

How does what type of power and Immortal has have anything to do with balencing them?

There is no mortal scale above 30th though. I'm talking about the raw power of an immortal level in comparison to a mortal level.

Which simply means any way of creating an immortal encounter level system would make it totaly incompatable with the standard system.

Irrelevant. The point I am trying to illustrate is that the higher in Hit Dice you go the greater the possibility you will escape the d20 roll, which then breaks the game down.

Which the system you propose does nothing to stop, it simply increases power per-level meaning that it escapes the d20 faster.

Therefore the goal is to drop Hit Dice as much as possible while still retaining something akin to overall power.

The ultimate effect of which means you end up simply increasing power per hit dice, which simply means that you become incompatable with the standard encounter level system thus further damaging the window of interaction and mortal/immortal interaction.

If you wanted to reduce HD why not simply stop 31st+ level mortals from gaining HD and BAB instead meaning they only get bonus feats and class abilities?

But if we allow infinite mortal levelling then we can't do that, which means you may as well play 3.5.

How does allowing infinite mortal leveling stop that? And even if it did then you're system harms it even more.

Its a maths test. I didn't go far enough in fixing 3rd Edition.

What needed fixing in 3rd edition? This is a very important question in designing a 4th edtion set of rules so as to avoid the pitfalls of earlier edtions. It would also allow the use of 3rd edtion epic as a springboard from 4th edtion rules.

EDIT: Actually to expand upon this where did the epic rules do well? Not just the ELH either but what aspects from other epic level books (from any edition) are there that should be emulated or avoided?

...and what are your conclusions?

If I had any worth posting I'd post them .
The most I could come up with essentially boiled down to moving everything up a tier (so Immortals gain quintessance from mortal worship, sidreals gain existentiance from immortal worship and so on). Other than that maybe gaining Existentiance based on the number of mortals/immortals living on the sidreals plane. Or gaining bosanance from control multiple layers/planes.

Similar to Ascension but with the Immortal Templates becoming Classes and the Portfolios/Abilities becoming Talent Trees.

How do these talent trees work?

Like a Bestiary, Magic Section, and Campaign Section...

Yes however as one book instead of eight.

Not sure yet, but I was thinking Disciple would be for Paragons (Level 11-20) and Prophets would be for Epic (21-30) characters.

Sound good, do you mean as the prestige class equivelents for 4th edition. From whats been said about them they interfere with the base class as little as possible, which would make them ideal.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Axolotl mate!

Can I suggest that when you multi-quote in future, put a line (of space) between each quote. When I went to quote you there the entire list of comments was virtually one big chunk of text and its taken me a while to seperate them all. Thanks.

Fine by me you're the one who said they didn't like the blandness of 3rd edition epic.

So are you saying you like blandness?

Why is that?

I'd rather have exciting than bland. I'd rather have interesting than bland.

And why when posting you're revised classes did you go up to level 40?

My time is far from infinite.

It removes almost all mortal/immortal interaction as all immortals are more powerful than all mortals as standerd.

Mortal/Immortal interaction doesn't require one to be more powerful than the other. Simply that there is a reasonable enough threat.

Ok then, they want a bigger gulf between mortal and immortal.

I don't see how that adds anything to the game.

How so?

If the average party has 5 characters then you are limited as to what deities you can physically interact with and still have a chance/be challenging.

If one Intermediate Deity is equal to 10 demideities then your party (of 5) will be destroyed, thats not interaction - its suicide.

If one Intermediate Deity is equal to 4 demideities, then your party has a chance of victory.

How does even a 30th level charicter begin to challenge an Abomanation?

Your party is allowed to take on opponents tougher than any single individual of the party.

They're the equivelent to a quasi-deity (level 36 using you're rough calculations) but genrals have a power level closer to that of a demigod. (level 41) so using you're idea that each immortal level is equal to 3 mortal levels its (for the non-divine players) a level 55 (42 at the lowest).

Obviously if we have abominations in 4th Edition using these rules we'll have to spread their power out a bit rather than simply make them all quasi-deities since they all have different CRs in 3rd Edition. No sense giving them all the same CRs in 4th is there.

From what I've read on adventure design they're trying to make it so that ten goblins are as much of a threat to a 10th level party as one goblin is to a first level party. and since the entire XP and encounter level systems are based around this not increasing the window of interaction as much as possible would be nonsensical

Possibly, but I doubt 30 goblins will be as problematic to a 30th-level party as 1 goblin is to a 1st-level party. There'll be a cut off point of about 10 levels for that (over the core 30).

How does what type of power and Immortal has have anything to do with balencing them?

Its simply a matter of limiting damage output instead providing tangible game 'options' rather than yet another +1 to this, that or the other.

Which simply means any way of creating an immortal encounter level system would make it totaly incompatable with the standard system.

I don't think WotC can stave off the escalation of power outside the d20 bracket forever, but it will be interesting to see what they can do.

Which the system you propose does nothing to stop, it simply increases power per-level meaning that it escapes the d20 faster.

No, because the mathmatical power is lessened. Like I said, we go sideways with power rather than merely up.

Instead of +1 to a die roll, we might add flight etc.

Not that there won't be bonuses, just that they will be less prevailant.

The ultimate effect of which means you end up simply increasing power per hit dice, which simply means that you become incompatable with the standard encounter level system thus further damaging the window of interaction and mortal/immortal interaction.

Exactly. You cannot escape the inevitable, but you can try to postpone it for as long as possible.

If you wanted to reduce HD why not simply stop 31st+ level mortals from gaining HD and BAB instead meaning they only get bonus feats and class abilities?

Well for a start it would be cheating the levels. We'd still also have to create all those infinite class features. It would totally mess with balance.

How does allowing infinite mortal leveling stop that?

It kills any chance we have of keeping a tight rein on the d20 power bracket.

What needed fixing in 3rd edition?

Over reliance of buffs, over reliance on multiple bonuses, over reliance on magic items (sorted in Ascension), redundance of lower level spells at high level (sorted to a degree in Ascension), too many options, over reliance on math.

This is a very important question in designing a 4th edtion set of rules so as to avoid the pitfalls of earlier edtions. It would also allow the use of 3rd edtion epic as a springboard from 4th edtion rules.

I agree.

EDIT: Actually to expand upon this where did the epic rules do well? Not just the ELH either but what aspects from other epic level books (from any edition) are there that should be emulated or avoided? If I had any worth posting I'd post them .

See my review on the website:

www.immortalshandbook.com/review2.htm

The most I could come up with essentially boiled down to moving everything up a tier (so Immortals gain quintessance from mortal worship, sidreals gain existentiance from immortal worship and so on). Other than that maybe gaining Existentiance based on the number of mortals/immortals living on the sidreals plane. Or gaining bosanance from control multiple layers/planes.

Its a tricky problem.

How do these talent trees work?

Like feat chains, but branching out like a tree.

Yes however as one book instead of eight.

So less total material then?

Maybe I can do an Ascension each year, Ascension II, Ascension III and have a few spells, portfolios and a few monsters in each.

Sound good, do you mean as the prestige class equivelents for 4th edition. From whats been said about them they interfere with the base class as little as possible, which would make them ideal.

I'll need to see 4th Edition first before I can answer that.

They have said Prestige Classes may not start to 21st-level.

So perhaps it would be Disciple 21-25 and Prophet 26-30.

 

[Axolotl]

Hey Axolotl mate!

Hey!

Can I suggest that when you multi-quote in future, put a line (of space) between each quote. When I went to quote you there the entire list of comments was virtually one big chunk of text and its taken me a while to seperate them all. Thanks.

Sorry .

So are you saying you like blandness?

I'm saying that I can easily game with blandness

I'd rather have exciting than bland. I'd rather have interesting than bland.

Indeed, that's why in my earlier post I offered a compromise.

My time is far from infinite.

Of course, however I don’t think you need to gain new class features to find character progression interesting.

Mortal/Immortal interaction doesn't require one to be more powerful than the other. Simply that there is a reasonable enough threat.

Yes but with you’re system beyond demi-deity level there is no threat.

I don't see how that adds anything to the game.

It adds more freedom for the DM.

If the average party has 5 characters then you are limited as to what deities you can physically interact with and still have a chance/be challenging.

If one Intermediate Deity is equal to 10 demideities then your party (of 5) will be destroyed, thats not interaction - its suicide.

If one Intermediate Deity is equal to 4 demideities, then your party has a chance of victory.

If you’re characters are demideities and as such Immortals. 5 mortal characters however can never, ever challenge an Intermediate deity.

So I ask again how does the system you’re suggesting promote mortal/immortal interaction?

Your party is allowed to take on opponents tougher than any single individual of the party.

Indeed. But some things are just too tough for any mortal in the system you’re suggesting.

Obviously if we have abominations in 4th Edition using these rules we'll have to spread their power out a bit rather than simply make them all quasi-deities since they all have different CRs in 3rd Edition. No sense giving them all the same CRs in 4th is there.

Indeed I was just using abominations to illustrate my point.

Possibly, but I doubt 30 goblins will be as problematic to a 30th-level party as 1 goblin is to a 1st-level party. There'll be a cut off point of about 10 levels for that (over the core 30).

Of course the window of interaction still exists however they are looking to (as far as I can tell) expand it significantly.

I don't think WotC can stave off the escalation of power outside the d20 bracket forever, but it will be interesting to see what they can do.

I thought that making 30 the highest level was how they stopped it.

No, because the mathmatical power is lessened. Like I said, we go sideways with power rather than merely up.

Instead of +1 to a die roll, we might add flight etc.

Not that there won't be bonuses, just that they will be less prevailant.

So your Immortal classes don’t gain BAB?

Exactly. You cannot escape the inevitable, but you can try to postpone it for as long as possible.

I think that given enough thought it could be solved.

Well for a start it would be cheating the levels. We'd still also have to create all those infinite class features. It would totally mess with balance.

True.

It kills any chance we have of keeping a tight rein on the d20 power bracket.

My first reaction to this would be to increase the range of the d20.

Over reliance of buffs, over reliance on multiple bonuses, over reliance on magic items (sorted in Ascension), redundance of lower level spells at high level (sorted to a degree in Ascension), too many options, over reliance on math.

I still feel that magic items could be handled a lot better.

I agree.

See my review on the website:

www.immortalshandbook.com/review2.htm

I'll read through it and see what I can extract.

Its a tricky problem.

Indeed it is.

Like feat chains, but branching out like a tree.

And theres one for each portfolio right?

So less total material then?

No, just make it 1,500 pages long .

Maybe I can do an Ascension each year, Ascension II, Ascension III and have a few spells, portfolios and a few monsters in each.

I was meaning an ELH/Ascension type book that covers all the basics of epic allowing somebody to run an epic/immortal game with only one book and then the rest of the IH to augment it.

I'll need to see 4th Edition first before I can answer that.

Of course.

They have said Prestige Classes may not start to 21st-level.

So perhaps it would be Disciple 21-25 and Prophet 26-30.

Sounds fairly solid.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey!.

Hey there!

Sorry .

No apologies necessary mate.

I'm saying that I can easily game with blandness

But is it preferable? Why eat cardboard when you can eat steak?

Of course, however I don’t think you need to gain new class features to find character progression interesting.

Depends on whether you have enough feats to compensate. However, that drags us into the next problem which is character creation taking too long.

Yes but with you’re system beyond demi-deity level there is no threat.

?

It adds more freedom for the DM.

Incorrect. It adds more freedom for the players, it adds more work for the DM.

If you’re characters are demideities and as such Immortals. 5 mortal characters however can never, ever challenge an Intermediate deity.

...and why should they be able to? Thats like saying five Intermediate Deities can never challenge a Demiurge - so what.

So I ask again how does the system you’re suggesting promote mortal/immortal interaction?

It brings the maths of each status closer together - thats how.

Interaction to you seems to mean boosting the mortal PCs to match their adversaries no matter how powerful they may be.

Indeed. But some things are just too tough for any mortal in the system you’re suggesting.

Correct, but the question is then, why shouldn't some things be too tough for mortals. If mortality is too limiting, then become an immortal!

A cursory glance at D&D's most powerful NPCs shows that they were generally immortal in some sense.

Myrlynd, Heward, Keoghtom
Kelanen
Cat Lord
Eminster (Chosen of)

etc.

Similarly the most powerful heroes of myth are considered Hero-deities and in a few cases Quasi-deities.

So at every turn I fail to see a problem with this.

Indeed I was just using abominations to illustrate my point.

But you were using 3E Abominations to illustrate a 4E point.

Of course the window of interaction still exists however they are looking to (as far as I can tell) expand it significantly.

Thats certainly the goal, but I doubt they will be able to expand it to make thirty 1st-level monsters as big a challenge to a 30th-level character as one 1st-level monster is to a single 1st-level character.

I thought that making 30 the highest level was how they stopped it.

No, as they have mentioned many times the sweet spot in 3E is 4-14th. What they are doing is spreading that out to cover the first 30 levels. That doesn't mean a 30th-level character will only be as powerful as a 3E 14th-level character. It just means a tighter control of the math.

So your Immortal classes don’t gain BAB?

I never said that.

I think that given enough thought it could be solved.

With enough thought you could solve the Theory of Everything/M-Theory.

My first reaction to this would be to increase the range of the d20.

To be honest I see any such change destabilizing things even worse.

I still feel that magic items could be handled a lot better.

Well hopefully they will be.

And theres one for each portfolio right?

I was thinking five for each portfolio (Attack, Defence, Summoning, Control, Misc.). But I need to see 4E first.

No, just make it 1,500 pages long .

It comes with its own bookshelf!

I was meaning an ELH/Ascension type book that covers all the basics of epic allowing somebody to run an epic/immortal game with only one book and then the rest of the IH to augment it.

We'll see.

Sounds fairly solid.

 

[paradox42]

But is it preferable? Why eat cardboard when you can eat steak?

Circumstances exist. Cardboard is preferable to steak if the eater is vegetarian, or if the eater has been told by a doctor that his arteries are hardening and he badly needs more fiber in his diet.

Incorrect. It adds more freedom for the players, it adds more work for the DM.

Reading this back-and-forth, I've completely lost track of what it is you two are claiming adds freedom for whom, so I'm curious whether you both still remember yourselves?

...After reading up a bit again, and being more specific, how does having less powerful Immortals (relative to mortals) give the DM less work and players less freedom, compared with increasing the mortal/Immortal divide?

...and why should they be able to? Thats like saying five Intermediate Deities can never challenge a Demiurge - so what.

...

It brings the maths of each status closer together - thats how.

Interaction to you seems to mean boosting the mortal PCs to match their adversaries no matter how powerful they may be.

Since, as you know, I am a man who strongly advocates making gods far more powerful than mortals, and accordingly wide power gaps between Immortal tiers, let me turn this around on you: why should mortals at 20th level be able to challenge a demigod, or even a quasi-deity? Why should five lesser deities be able to challenge a greater deity? We're talking combat numbers here for the most part, since that's what 3E is focused on and nobody outside playtest groups is yet seeing anything about how this noncombat XP is supposed to work in 4E- and yet, you just made my primary argument for me up above. Interaction, to you in prior arguments on this subject, seems to mean reducing the Immortal power quotient so as to bring Immortals closer to the mortal level so that mortal PCs can more easily challenge them. How does this promote interaction? Why can't interaction happen if power gaps are wide, in your view?

Perhaps my experience is skewed, but I've never had problems inserting gods as NPCs into my games starting as early as 9th level or so in 3rd Edition- they show up rarely and behave much the same way as a powerful emperor or a mysterious archmage. The players know that the being is beyond them, and that if they try anything bad they can be squashed like bugs. This does not prevent them from interacting with the being in question- it just makes them more likely to be deferential, diplomatic, or otherwise looking for noncombat solutions to whatever problem they're dealing with at the time. Some people claim that it isn't "realistic" for beings that powerful to interact with low-level mortals, but to them I ask: what does realism have to do with anything? Aren't we playing a fantasy game? Don't those archmages have to go out and gather materials for their world-shaking spells from time to time? Don't emperors have a day to hear the grievances of the commoners, or otherwise want to see these lowly petitioners in person so as to better judge their claims? Why shouldn't a god show up in person to explain the portion of the holy text that's giving the Cleric trouble, if he's known to be an individual who's showing great potential (as PCs, by general default, are)? Arguments to the contrary have always rang false, somehow, to me.

Correct, but the question is then, why shouldn't some things be too tough for mortals. If mortality is too limiting, then become an immortal!

Once again, you appear to be making my argument for me. Wide power gaps do not mean uncrossable ones, nor do they mean interaction isn't possible. They just change the character of interactions which do occur, and serve to always remind the players of the aphorism that there's always a bigger fish in the sea.

No, as they have mentioned many times the sweet spot in 3E is 4-14th. What they are doing is spreading that out to cover the first 30 levels. That doesn't mean a 30th-level character will only be as powerful as a 3E 14th-level character. It just means a tighter control of the math.

Small correction, that's what they're trying to do. I have doubts that they'll be able to do it, myself, but am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I have the 3 core books sitting on my shelf read and the information percolating in my brain.

I was thinking five for each portfolio (Attack, Defence, Summoning, Control, Misc.). But I need to see 4E first.

We all do, of course- this is all speculative until we do see it.

 

[Axolotl]

Hey there!

Hey!

No apologies necessary mate.

Good.

But is it preferable? Why eat cardboard when you can eat steak?

Because it's easier to prepare the cardboard. Also using the system jedrious is suggesting I can have cardboard and steak.

Depends on whether you have enough feats to compensate. However, that drags us into the next problem which is character creation taking too long.

Choosing 1 feat when you level up usually doesn't take very long.

?

A non-munchkined 30th level party can offer no threat to an Intermediate deity, even without considering that deities friends and servants.

Incorrect. It adds more freedom for the players, it adds more work for the DM.

Allowing the DM to choose when the players become divine and how powerful gods are somehow doesn't increase his freedom?

...and why should they be able to? Thats like saying five Intermediate Deities can never challenge a Demiurge - so what.

It means that players in a closed cosmology who want an alreafy chosen portfolio are left at 30th level.

It brings the maths of each status closer together - thats how.

Interaction to you seems to mean boosting the mortal PCs to match their adversaries no matter how powerful they may be.

You've said yourself that there needs to be at least some threat.

Correct, but the question is then, why shouldn't some things be too tough for mortals. If mortality is too limiting, then become an immortal!

Which will be impossible for many people in a closed cosmology!

A cursory glance at D&D's most powerful NPCs shows that they were generally immortal in some sense.

Myrlynd, Heward, Keoghtom
Kelanen
Cat Lord
Eminster (Chosen of)

etc.

Similarly the most powerful heroes of myth are considered Hero-deities and in a few cases Quasi-deities.

So at every turn I fail to see a problem with this.

Some people are higher level divinites than others yet less powerful. Your system make this impossible.

But you were using 3E Abominations to illustrate a 4E point.

Thats because I don't have any 4th edition epic monsters.

Thats certainly the goal, but I doubt they will be able to expand it to make thirty 1st-level monsters as big a challenge to a 30th-level character as one 1st-level monster is to a single 1st-level character.

I never said they would.

No, as they have mentioned many times the sweet spot in 3E is 4-14th. What they are doing is spreading that out to cover the first 30 levels. That doesn't mean a 30th-level character will only be as powerful as a 3E 14th-level character. It just means a tighter control of the math.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

I never said that.

But that's the only logical outcome of your argument.

With enough thought you could solve the Theory of Everything/M-Theory.

Yes but I'm sure that less thought is needed.

To be honest I see any such change destabilizing things even worse.

Indeed.

Well hopefully they will be.

Of course.

I was thinking five for each portfolio (Attack, Defence, Summoning, Control, Misc.). But I need to see 4E first.

I was hoping that this would be over halfway done before 5th edtion .

 

[Upper_Krust]

Circumstances exist. Cardboard is preferable to steak if the eater is vegetarian, or if the eater has been told by a doctor that his arteries are hardening and he badly needs more fiber in his diet.

Reading this back-and-forth, I've completely lost track of what it is you two are claiming adds freedom for whom, so I'm curious whether you both still remember yourselves?

Its about the pros and cons of allowing divinity at any level.

...After reading up a bit again, and being more specific, how does having less powerful Immortals (relative to mortals) give the DM less work and players less freedom, compared with increasing the mortal/Immortal divide?

It gives the DM less work because less math (and PC/NPC options) amounts to less work.

It gives the players less freedom because you can't seemingly have 1st-level Greater Powers or 100th-level mortals running about.

Since, as you know, I am a man who strongly advocates making gods far more powerful than mortals, and accordingly wide power gaps between Immortal tiers,

It should be noted there is no logical reason to do this.

let me turn this around on you: why should mortals at 20th level be able to challenge a demigod, or even a quasi-deity?

The answer lies in what is 20th-level!? 20th-level is an arbitrary game mechanic denoting some measure of character experience, but the relativity between 20th-level and demigod or quasi-deity is purely up to the game designer (to be overruled by the DM if they so wish).

Why should five lesser deities be able to challenge a greater deity?

Simply because it opens up greater avenues of roleplaying for your party.

If I create a monster, within its own power bracket I want it to be used as much as possible.

We're talking combat numbers here for the most part, since that's what 3E is focused on and nobody outside playtest groups is yet seeing anything about how this noncombat XP is supposed to work in 4E- and yet, you just made my primary argument for me up above. Interaction, to you in prior arguments on this subject, seems to mean reducing the Immortal power quotient so as to bring Immortals closer to the mortal level so that mortal PCs can more easily challenge them.

Reducing mathmatical power, not necessarily power itself.

How does this promote interaction? Why can't interaction happen if power gaps are wide, in your view?

If it takes a month of gaming to level up your PCs and they start at 20th. It takes a year to reach 32nd-level and ten years to reach 140th.

Why force people to be roleplaying 20+ years to be able to run the adventure with that Lovecraftian beast you always wanted to use?

Perhaps my experience is skewed, but I've never had problems inserting gods as NPCs into my games starting as early as 9th level or so in 3rd Edition- they show up rarely and behave much the same way as a powerful emperor or a mysterious archmage. The players know that the being is beyond them, and that if they try anything bad they can be squashed like bugs. This does not prevent them from interacting with the being in question- it just makes them more likely to be deferential, diplomatic, or otherwise looking for noncombat solutions to whatever problem they're dealing with at the time.

What I am talking about is physical interaction, not "attack them and be destroyed for sure".

Some people claim that it isn't "realistic" for beings that powerful to interact with low-level mortals, but to them I ask: what does realism have to do with anything?

Exactly.

But in your case, is it fun to have Players game until they are 90 before you can use Metatron in a physical capacity, or do you artificially inflate PCs level/power at certain junctures? Are they levelling up faster than core...and if so then how is that any different from reducing the math/level/whatever but having them level up at normal rates?

Once again, you appear to be making my argument for me. Wide power gaps do not mean uncrossable ones, nor do they mean interaction isn't possible. They just change the character of interactions which do occur, and serve to always remind the players of the aphorism that there's always a bigger fish in the sea.

Wider power gaps mean it just takes longer to get from A to B and you have less monsters/NPCs to use getting there.