4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Choosing 1 feat when you level up usually doesn't take very long.

But from the perspective of the DM, choosing 30 (or whatever) feats for each NPC does take long.

A non-munchkined 30th level party can offer no threat to an Intermediate deity, even without considering that deities friends and servants.

How do you know that, we haven't worked out the effective CR/Level disparity yet.

Note that in the Savage Tide adventure Demogorgon is reduced in power by certain events happening around him set in motion by the PCs. Why couldn't this happen elsewhere?

It means that players in a closed cosmology who want an alreafy chosen portfolio are left at 30th level.

So don't play in a closed cosmology. Don't choose that portfolio. Do PCs start crying because Mystra is the Goddess of Magic and not them?

You've said yourself that there needs to be at least some threat.

There needs to be at least some threat to constitute physical interaction.

Which will be impossible for many people in a closed cosmology!

So were the mortal heroes of the Avatar trilogy all 90th (or whatever) level then?

Some people are higher level divinites than others yet less powerful. Your system make this impossible.

True but it doesn't mean individuals cannot defeat more powerful beings. Theres no logical reason why some lesser deities should be more powerful than greater deities.

Thats because I don't have any 4th edition epic monsters.

Exactly. So then ask yourself are all the 3E abominations equally powerful. Then ask yourself is the quasi-deity power attributed to them a necessary part of their make-up.

The answer to both is no, therefore why would it be yes in 4E?

Yes but I'm sure that less thought is needed.

Less man hours of thought perhaps, but do we have all the worlds top minds on this immortal 4E predicament?

I was hoping that this would be over halfway done before 5th edtion

Well theres always 6th Edition.

 

[Axolotl]

Howdy!

Hey!

But from the perspective of the DM, choosing 30 (or whatever) feats for each NPC does take long.

Why bother?

How do you know that, we haven't worked out the effective CR/Level disparity yet.

Note that in the Savage Tide adventure Demogorgon is reduced in power by certain events happening around him set in motion by the PCs. Why couldn't this happen elsewhere?

Don't PC's just get various other demons to weaken him? If your main strategy relys on the enemy having no allies and lots of enemies then you really aren't that much of a threat. though in genral I see your point.

So don't play in a closed cosmology. Don't choose that portfolio. Do PCs start crying because Mystra is the Goddess of Magic and not them?

The problem is since most really epic NPC'S will have to be gods, even ones for whom godhood doesn't fit, now must be gods.

There needs to be at least some threat to constitute physical interaction.

And in the system you're suggesting there is very little threat.

So were the mortal heroes of the Avatar trilogy all 90th (or whatever) level then?

I have no idea what that is.

True but it doesn't mean individuals cannot defeat more powerful beings. Theres no logical reason why some lesser deities should be more powerful than greater deities.

But your system makes it impossible for hero-deities to be as powerful as quasi-deities which there is mythological examples of.

Exactly. So then ask yourself are all the 3E abominations equally powerful. Then ask yourself is the quasi-deity power attributed to them a necessary part of their make-up.
The answer to both is no, therefore why would it be yes in 4E?

Less man hours of thought perhaps, but do we have all the worlds top minds on this immortal 4E predicament?

Yes .
Seriously though 4th edition hasn't come out yet and we're already disscussing the Immortal rules for it.

Well theres always 6th Edition.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey!

Hiya matey!

Why bother?

Basically what Simon did there was say lets take the rules with a pinch of salt. He doesn't fully stat NPCs (because 3E can be so longwinded). Ergo he isn't using the full rules.

You can't create a set of rules around not using the rules.

Don't PC's just get various other demons to weaken him?

Through roleplaying they manipulate events so that the situation becomes unfavourable to their enemy.

If your main strategy relys on the enemy having no allies and lots of enemies then you really aren't that much of a threat. though in genral I see your point.

The problem is since most really epic NPC'S will have to be gods, even ones for whom godhood doesn't fit, now must be gods.

For whom does godhood not fit?

Does it fit 3E abominations for instance? Are they 'gods'?

And in the system you're suggesting there is very little threat.

Cart before the horse. Threat to you means boosting the PCs to challenge the bad guy.

I have no idea what that is.

This explains it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles_(Forgotten_Realms)

But your system makes it impossible for hero-deities to be as powerful as quasi-deities which there is mythological examples of.

What on Earth are you talking about? The terms hero-deity and quasi-deity were created by Gary Gygax (unless I am mistaken), they have no mythological precedent.

Yes .

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Seriously though 4th edition hasn't come out yet and we're already disscussing the Immortal rules for it.

It pays to keep up with the times.

 

[GQuail]

It pays to keep up with the times.

It might pay a little more to finish doing the immortal rules for the version of the game currently in print first.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy mate!

It might pay a little more to finish doing the immortal rules for the version of the game currently in print first.

You know what I mean!

 

[Axolotl]

Why exactly are you going for an immortal class as opposed to the template system?

 

[dante58701]

I much prefer a template system. It offers a lot more and cuts out the middleman syndrome.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I'd stilllike the rest of the 3.5 pdfs as softbacks if even possible. My Epic Bestiary, Vol. I is starting to feel onely without its mates.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Why exactly are you going for an immortal class as opposed to the template system?

Well its early days yet, 4E plans are still in the pre-production phase.

But it seems to me that the problem with the template system is twofold.

1a. You need to explain mortal class progression for every class to an infinite degree.
1b. Which means not only more work, but ultimately, a bland and drab standardised epic progression (as we have in the current ELH).

2. Immortal Power/Levels (whatever you want to call it) need to be more powerful than mortal levels. If mortal power continues infinitely, then you have a schism of sorts which warps the relevance of the d20.

The solution appears (at this early stage) to be a slight railroading of 30+ levels into an immortal 'class'.

This means we can ramp up immortal power, but at the same time keep the d20 roll relevant for longer, which is something that really escapes us far too quickly in 3E.

So even if a time lord is only level 100 (and I'm pulling numbers out of thin air here) it might hold the power equivalent to 2000 mortal levels, but without the need to have 999 Hit Dice which is a number which then filters down into everything else - BAB, Saves etc.

 

[dante58701]

4th edition is still going to a huge disaster. It will primarily end up targeting an audience used to 3.0-3.5. I think they need to go retro and start reprinting old editions for diehard fans. It would certainly give people more options to choose from and end the exclusion of old gamers who like the old systems.