The problem with doing it as a class system as oppossed to a template or sideline progression like I suggested is that we don't know what the power curve of WotC's post 30 progressions might be, it could easily be that mortal levels beyond 30 could outperform your immortal levelsUpper_Krust said:
4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook
- Thread starter Upper_Krust
- Start date
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hey dante mate! 
I fail to see how? From a design standpoint it seems to be doing everything right as far as I can tell.
Do you mean alienating and not 'targeting'? Otherwise your statement seems to validate their choices.
Who can easily just buy them on ebay, or buy something like Hackmaster.
Oddly enough I actually think my Godlight 1st Edition Immortals Rules would be invincible, but thats just me.
Lets give 4E a chance. Frankly I don't understand your criticism of it.
dante58701 said:
I fail to see how? From a design standpoint it seems to be doing everything right as far as I can tell.
Do you mean alienating and not 'targeting'? Otherwise your statement seems to validate their choices.
Who can easily just buy them on ebay, or buy something like Hackmaster.
Oddly enough I actually think my Godlight 1st Edition Immortals Rules would be invincible, but thats just me.
Lets give 4E a chance. Frankly I don't understand your criticism of it.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hey Jedrious mate!
Unlikely though, isn't it.
Firstly, we don't know when, or even if WotC will get round to any 30+ ruleset. By incorporating epic into the core game it suggests they'll be tackling it later rather than sooner.
As for WotC's mortal level progression outperforming my immortal progression, I can't see that at all since my immortal progression will be an extension of their mortal progression with some sort of innate multiplier hardwired in*.
*One immortal level could be the equivalent to 3 mortal levels for instance. That doesn't mean 1 immortal level IS 3 mortal levels, simply that tallying up all the features of an immortal level would be roughly worth 3 mortal levels.
So unless WotC is going to come out and say that each level after 30th is equivalent to 4 or more pre-30 levels I don't see a problem.
jedrious said:
Unlikely though, isn't it.
Firstly, we don't know when, or even if WotC will get round to any 30+ ruleset. By incorporating epic into the core game it suggests they'll be tackling it later rather than sooner.
As for WotC's mortal level progression outperforming my immortal progression, I can't see that at all since my immortal progression will be an extension of their mortal progression with some sort of innate multiplier hardwired in*.
*One immortal level could be the equivalent to 3 mortal levels for instance. That doesn't mean 1 immortal level IS 3 mortal levels, simply that tallying up all the features of an immortal level would be roughly worth 3 mortal levels.
So unless WotC is going to come out and say that each level after 30th is equivalent to 4 or more pre-30 levels I don't see a problem.
To be quite honest, my criticism of 4th edition has a lot to do with the Windows syndrome. Every year they come out with a new version that is supposedly better than the last, but ends up having hundreds of unforeseen flaws. Flaws which will be fixed in the next version.
This means that they will have 4.0, 4.5 (or 5.0), 5.0 (or 6.0), ect. and people will keep stupidly buying newer more upgraded systems when the old ones are working just fine.
I would much rather see them take 3.5 and make a few very subtle rule revisions instead of making people's books more or less useless kindling. We all may as well wait for the next two decades to pass before we bother buying any d20 game system. Or just wait till WOTC goes under, then buy the d20 game system we deem to be the most worthy.
This way we won't be sucked into the corporate machine.
This means that they will have 4.0, 4.5 (or 5.0), 5.0 (or 6.0), ect. and people will keep stupidly buying newer more upgraded systems when the old ones are working just fine.
I would much rather see them take 3.5 and make a few very subtle rule revisions instead of making people's books more or less useless kindling. We all may as well wait for the next two decades to pass before we bother buying any d20 game system. Or just wait till WOTC goes under, then buy the d20 game system we deem to be the most worthy.
This way we won't be sucked into the corporate machine.
Last edited:
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hey dante dude!
I don't think your criticism is justified.
To me 3.5 was about as big a change as from 1st to 2nd Edition. The 2nd Edition change was political (to deprive Gygax of T$R royalties from sales). Thus if anything we have had 1st Edition, 3rd Edition and now 4th Edition.
Also you cannot criticise the designers for trying to fix flaws in the system. 2nd Edition had problems - 3rd Edition fixed them. However, in doing so 3rd Edition created a number of problems itself (notably being too complex).
To me 3rd Edition is actually less playable than 1st Edition, it just is too unwieldy. So I applaud the 4E designers for simplifying the game (notably for DMs..and designers).
If they dramatically improve the game then your thoughts fall flat on their face. As for old books becoming useless, sell them on ebay or something if the money is an issue. You don't complain about old videogames when a new machine or format comes out, because you can always go back to those games. Same with D&D.
dante58701 said:
I don't think your criticism is justified.
To me 3.5 was about as big a change as from 1st to 2nd Edition. The 2nd Edition change was political (to deprive Gygax of T$R royalties from sales). Thus if anything we have had 1st Edition, 3rd Edition and now 4th Edition.
Also you cannot criticise the designers for trying to fix flaws in the system. 2nd Edition had problems - 3rd Edition fixed them. However, in doing so 3rd Edition created a number of problems itself (notably being too complex).
To me 3rd Edition is actually less playable than 1st Edition, it just is too unwieldy. So I applaud the 4E designers for simplifying the game (notably for DMs..and designers).
If they dramatically improve the game then your thoughts fall flat on their face. As for old books becoming useless, sell them on ebay or something if the money is an issue. You don't complain about old videogames when a new machine or format comes out, because you can always go back to those games. Same with D&D.
But I like my books and the 3.5 system just fine. All it really needs is some very minor fine tuning, not more dumbing down o the game. It just takes away the complexities I love so much. By taking away the complexity, they are basically taking away a lot of the DMing tools needed to keep power gamers in line. And although you could just say "I'm DM, that's how it is." it just doesn't fly by those used to using pure logic. I actually have a few mathematician vulcanoids in our various gaming groups. I can just see explaining to them that 4th Edition is better. WOTC has all the advertisement for a system we haven't even seen or tried out for ourselves. It's kind of counterintuitive to advertise something and not really explain it. Unless they're just trying to suck in as many preorders as they can before giving them all the big letdown.
4.0 could conceivably be a good thing, but it will more than likely be a huge disaster. Especially since they are venturing so far from Core D&D cosmologies. They might as well start packaging it as a new game, because from what little I have seen, it isn't really D&D anymore.
4.0 could conceivably be a good thing, but it will more than likely be a huge disaster. Especially since they are venturing so far from Core D&D cosmologies. They might as well start packaging it as a new game, because from what little I have seen, it isn't really D&D anymore.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hey dante mate!
So then play 3E. However, your like 3E doesn't fix the problems in that system that are obvious to the majority of gamers. 4E does seem to fix those problems.
3E needs MAJOR simplification. Simplification is not dumbing down (go read Occam's Razor), just good design.
Nothing could be further from the truth. 3E had all but relegated the DM to an observer, hamstrung by rules lawyering and player power. Hopefully 4E will reclaim some of that lost DM power.
But the problem all too often is that D&D is not based on logic but rather a set of arbitrary rules, therefore its rules lawyering that will undermine a DM, not logic.
Throw in a maths quiz at the start and they'll feel right at home.
They are not going to reveal everything until its on the shelves - that would just be silly.
Illogical. They seem to be answering all the faults of 3E to make D&D better - how can that be a bad thing.
The core cosmology was getting stale. It needed a kick up the backside if you ask me.
If they ever do a Greyhawk Campaign Setting they can bring back the old cosmology. Nothing has been lost as far as I can see.
...but possibly something better.
dante58701 said:
So then play 3E. However, your like 3E doesn't fix the problems in that system that are obvious to the majority of gamers. 4E does seem to fix those problems.
3E needs MAJOR simplification. Simplification is not dumbing down (go read Occam's Razor), just good design.
Nothing could be further from the truth. 3E had all but relegated the DM to an observer, hamstrung by rules lawyering and player power. Hopefully 4E will reclaim some of that lost DM power.
But the problem all too often is that D&D is not based on logic but rather a set of arbitrary rules, therefore its rules lawyering that will undermine a DM, not logic.
Throw in a maths quiz at the start and they'll feel right at home.
They are not going to reveal everything until its on the shelves - that would just be silly.
Illogical. They seem to be answering all the faults of 3E to make D&D better - how can that be a bad thing.
The core cosmology was getting stale. It needed a kick up the backside if you ask me.
If they ever do a Greyhawk Campaign Setting they can bring back the old cosmology. Nothing has been lost as far as I can see.
...but possibly something better.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Howdy WarDragon!
What criticism is that exactly? Frankly I haven't seen any valid criticism yet (a lot of skepticism, but no real scathing criticism). Feel free to post yours.
You cannot make statements like that with NOTHING to back it up, you only end up looking like an idiot yourself.
Post your criticism and prove that the WotC designers and me (as one of the target audience interested in 4E) are idiots. Otherwise retract that statement and apologise.
WarDragon said:
What criticism is that exactly? Frankly I haven't seen any valid criticism yet (a lot of skepticism, but no real scathing criticism). Feel free to post yours.
WarDragon said:
You cannot make statements like that with NOTHING to back it up, you only end up looking like an idiot yourself.
Post your criticism and prove that the WotC designers and me (as one of the target audience interested in 4E) are idiots. Otherwise retract that statement and apologise.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
WarDragon said:
Hmm, so you are calling the designers (who visit ENworld) and the many people on ENworld who are interested in 4e idiots?
You ought to know that is outside the terms of use for this site. Furthermore, you've already been warned for this behaviour by Piratecat in a 4e thread.
You may not have seen that, so I'm not suspending you right now, but if it happens again you will be suspended for a week.
Last edited:
