4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

Hmmm, seems fine to me. I do think you're clinging a little too hard to your 'unofficial' split of the Immortal tier into God/Greater God sets. Even if you demote some of the weaker ones to demigod, there's still a vast crunch in a tiny 5 level space with a comparatively massive gap in the next 5 level space. I think that in the end the conceptually smaller design space of 'Pantheon Head' should logically lead to a conceptually smaller margin for Greater Gods. They're level 39 or 40, not level 36, 37, 38, 39, or 40. We don't need that much space for them. So Thor isn't a greater god. Fair enough. He's still a powerful God, a level 38 Immortal of Strength and Thunder. Odin is still his superior, a level 40 Immortal of War, Sky, and Magic, and we're not pidgeonholing the vast majority of a pantheon into an unreasonably small space. None of the established tiers are subdivided in this way, and I think neither the Exalted nor Immortal ones need be either.

Yes I think you are probably correct, although that said, I haven't decided one way or the other. I still sort of like Greater God to mean something and I don't really think a 1-2 level difference is all that meaningful - in terms of power.

Additionally, I don't necessarily want to have all the Greater Gods the same level (or within 1-2 levels). Zeus may be a Level 49 Immortal with Hades and Poseidon merely Level 46. Ahura-Mazdah and Ahriman may be Level 48. Odin might be Level 50 with Hel Level 46. Brahma could be Level 48, with Vishnu Level 47 and Shiva Level 46. etc.

While it does create a bit of a squash at the 'Lesser God' Levels (41-45), technically if I were to list all the Demigods, Quasi-deities and Hero-deities that existed between Levels 31-40 it would be an even bigger squash!

 

[Alzrius]

It's worth considering that if you have to crunch too many deities into a five level space, you could consider keeping the Intermediate deity tier, which'd give you an extra five levels of space to sort divine beings out.

I know you want to keep your rules in line with the existing rules as much as possible, but consider - the 4E rules have nothing in regards to Hero deities or quasideities, and you still have that (even exarchs seem to be what you'd term prophets, e.g. proxies of deities).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Alzrius matey!

It's worth considering that if you have to crunch too many deities into a five level space, you could consider keeping the Intermediate deity tier, which'd give you an extra five levels of space to sort divine beings out.

I know you want to keep your rules in line with the existing rules as much as possible, but consider - the 4E rules have nothing in regards to Hero deities or quasideities, and you still have that (even exarchs seem to be what you'd term prophets, e.g. proxies of deities).

I dunno.

It may be possible to have...

Demigod 31-35
Lesser God 36-40
Intermediate God 41-45
Greater God 46-50

But it messes a few things about, and also, as you note, it won't gel with 4E exactly. It means the names Exalted and Immortal for the Tiers won't make as much sense. It means a Balor becomes a Demigod, and probably a host of other minor annoyances that possibly add up to a major annoyance. Food for thought I suppose though.

 

[Alzrius]

I dunno.

It may be possible to have...

Demigod 31-35
Lesser God 36-40
Intermediate God 41-45
Greater God 46-50

My thought was that it's not until after level 30 that you start to enter the Hero Deity level (31-35) followed by Quasideity (36-40), and then hit Demigod and up after that. I suppose that's too big a departure from the fact that one of the Epic Destinies makes you into a demigod after level 30, however.

But it messes a few things about, and also, as you note, it won't gel with 4E exactly. It means the names Exalted and Immortal for the Tiers won't make as much sense.

You can just change the names, or the amount of levels to which they apply.

It means a Balor becomes a Demigod, and probably a host of other minor annoyances that possibly add up to a major annoyance.

It does? I thought they were Level 27 Elite monsters, so they'd be below the threshold for demigods.

Food for thought I suppose though.

It's certainly worth considering. Your entire system is based around expanding the divine hierarchy (and making it more playable), so contracting it by removing an entire divine strata seems like a step backwards.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again matey!

My thought was that it's not until after level 30 that you start to enter the Hero Deity level (31-35) followed by Quasideity (36-40), and then hit Demigod and up after that. I suppose that's too big a departure from the fact that one of the Epic Destinies makes you into a demigod after level 30, however.

My current plan is for...

Exalted Tier

31-35 = Quasi-god
36-40 = Demi-god

Immortal Tier

41-45 = Lesser God
46-50 = Greater God

Sidereal Tier

51-55 = Elder God/Old One
56-60 = Proto-god/First One

You can just change the names, or the amount of levels to which they apply.

Not really. Tiers are in 10 Level bunches, thats pretty much standardised. Also I don't see any better names appearing than Exalted and Immortal.

It does? I thought they were Level 27 Elite monsters, so they'd be below the threshold for demigods.

Assuming 31-35 = Demigod then that also applies to standard monsters. Elite monsters are Standard -4 and Solo Monsters are Standard -9.

Orcus is therefore a 42nd-level immortal, even if hes a 33rd-level Solo encounter.

It's certainly worth considering. Your entire system is based around expanding the divine hierarchy (and making it more playable), so contracting it by removing an entire divine strata seems like a step backwards.

No. Contracting* is a step forward because it promotes interaction. Secondly, contraction helps make tiers more interesting in terms of content (specifically monsters, powers and magic items), meaning you have more content per tier than if I spread everything out beyond 31-60.

*That which was already far too spread out in 3/3.5 - my fault because of an initial mistake in my CR determination. I initially wanted each immortal to be twice as powerful as one of a previous divine status, but my error meant that each was four times as powerful.

 

[Center-of-All]

Hiya matey!



Yes I think you are probably correct, although that said, I haven't decided one way or the other. I still sort of like Greater God to mean something and I don't really think a 1-2 level difference is all that meaningful - in terms of power.

Additionally, I don't necessarily want to have all the Greater Gods the same level (or within 1-2 levels). Zeus may be a Level 49 Immortal with Hades and Poseidon merely Level 46. Ahura-Mazdah and Ahriman may be Level 48. Odin might be Level 50 with Hel Level 46. Brahma could be Level 48, with Vishnu Level 47 and Shiva Level 46. etc.

While it does create a bit of a squash at the 'Lesser God' Levels (41-45), technically if I were to list all the Demigods, Quasi-deities and Hero-deities that existed between Levels 31-40 it would be an even bigger squash!

Well, those set ups seem a bit more workable (here, you have Hades, Poseidon, Hel, Ahriman, Vishnu, and Shiva all within GG range despite not being pantheon heads [arguable for some of them]). I could see a 48-50 working as well, or what have you. The numbers to need tweaking.

And, while it's true that if you listed all the Demi, Hero, and Quasi deities between 31-40, the crunch would be bigger, the reality is you won't. Assuming your plans remain roughly what they were for 3E material, you will be creating and statting the majority (or most well known) of real world pantheons, and having 80+% of them in a 5 level space seems a bit...unneccessary?

Actually, I think I could get behind Alzrius' idea of Demi/Lesser then Intermediate/Greater. Wizards did say earlier that they excised the Intermediate tier, but the Player's Handbook itself makes no mention of various tiers of gods, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were removed altogether. Plus you're avoiding the incongruity of completing the Demigod epic destiny (we need more of these, BTW ), then having to complete a Quasigod sub-tier before moving onto the Demigod one (WTF?). Actually, I could see the Demigod ED just being what a Demigod is, and having a 10 level Lesser God tier, and a 10 level Greater God tier, with the last 3 or 4 levels of that tier being 'reserved' for Pantheon Heads. Somehow, though, I don't think you'll like that idea, so otherwise I'd be in favor of Alzrius' idea.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Center-of-All!

Well, those set ups seem a bit more workable (here, you have Hades, Poseidon, Hel, Ahriman, Vishnu, and Shiva all within GG range despite not being pantheon heads [arguable for some of them]). I could see a 48-50 working as well, or what have you. The numbers to need tweaking.

Some of the distinctions will always be subjective. I'll just have to go with my gut instincts (usually pretty good) tempered by what I think makes for the most interesting pantheon.

And, while it's true that if you listed all the Demi, Hero, and Quasi deities between 31-40, the crunch would be bigger, the reality is you won't. Assuming your plans remain roughly what they were for 3E material, you will be creating and statting the majority (or most well known) of real world pantheons, and having 80+% of them in a 5 level space seems a bit...unneccessary?

More like 30-40%.

PRIMOGENITORS (URANUS, GAIA)
TYPHON (ANCIENT LUNAR DRAGON)
HEKATONKERES (ENTITIES)

Zeus 48
Hades 46
Poseidon 46

ELDER TITANS

Hera 45
Hermes 45
Apollo 44
Dionysus 44
Ares 43
Athena 43
Aphrodite 42
Artemis 42
Hephaestus 41

GIGANTES

Demeter 40
Hecate 40
Pan 39
Tyche 39
Nike 38
Hercules 38

CERBERUS
DRAKAINAI

Odysseus 35
Jason 34
Perseus 33
Achilles 32
Bellerophon 32
Theseus 31
Circe 31

Anyone still think the Immortals are too cramped?

Actually, I think I could get behind Alzrius' idea of Demi/Lesser then Intermediate/Greater. Wizards did say earlier that they excised the Intermediate tier, but the Player's Handbook itself makes no mention of various tiers of gods, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were removed altogether. Plus you're avoiding the incongruity of completing the Demigod epic destiny (we need more of these, BTW ), then having to complete a Quasigod sub-tier before moving onto the Demigod one (WTF?). Actually, I could see the Demigod ED just being what a Demigod is, and having a 10 level Lesser God tier, and a 10 level Greater God tier, with the last 3 or 4 levels of that tier being 'reserved' for Pantheon Heads. Somehow, though, I don't think you'll like that idea, so otherwise I'd be in favor of Alzrius' idea.

I'll give it some thought.

 

[Center-of-All]

Hey, Krusty!

Hmmm, well my 80% prediction was based on the proportion of gods, as they were traditionally envisioned, as opposed to heroes, which the entirety of your 'quasi-deity' tier consists of (honestly, I'd never seen these characters as anything more than epic heroes, but I suppose quasigods work as well). Plus, I didn't think you'd bother with many you listed in the demigod area, considering your comments on 'obscure' deities earlier on. I was largely concerned with the big 14, which fits my numbers a bit more closely. If this is your preliminary list, though, the point is moot, as you're being more comprehensive than I expected with this.

As for your projected list itself, it seems largely good to me. I'd probably have Zeus at 49 like you originally stated (I've always thought of him as quite powerful, even compared to other pantheon heads). I'd also up Demeter by one level and put Hestia in at 40 (she's more worthy of a spot than Nike, if you wanted to keep this number of characters). Lastly, I'd try to make room for Persephone, probably at the lower demigod area, but that's at least partially from my own annoyance at her always being left off of this sort of thing. Beyond those two, however, you've covered every reasonably well known Greek deity, as well as the most important heroes. Were you planning to present them as monsters, PCs, or both? Either way, here's hoping that 4E's improved monster/PC design system lets them come out quickly.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey, Krusty!

Hey there matey!

Hmmm, well my 80% prediction was based on the proportion of gods, as they were traditionally envisioned, as opposed to heroes, which the entirety of your 'quasi-deity' tier consists of (honestly, I'd never seen these characters as anything more than epic heroes, but I suppose quasigods work as well).

Its sort of folding hero-deity into quasi-deity. Without portfolios the suffix of 'deity' is borderline meaningless. If the most powerful heroes from a mythos are not hero-deities/quasi-deities then that half of the tier is likely to be filled by a bunch of obscure near-unknowns. Which is perhaps less satisfying.

Plus, I didn't think you'd bother with many you listed in the demigod area, considering your comments on 'obscure' deities earlier on. I was largely concerned with the big 14, which fits my numbers a bit more closely. If this is your preliminary list, though, the point is moot, as you're being more comprehensive than I expected with this.

Its a very preliminary list. Especially with regards the heroes/quasi-deity sections.

As for your projected list itself, it seems largely good to me. I'd probably have Zeus at 49 like you originally stated (I've always thought of him as quite powerful, even compared to other pantheon heads).

Yes thats meant to be 49, typing mistake.

I'd also up Demeter by one level and put Hestia in at 40 (she's more worthy of a spot than Nike, if you wanted to keep this number of characters). Lastly, I'd try to make room for Persephone, probably at the lower demigod area, but that's at least partially from my own annoyance at her always being left off of this sort of thing.

Thats do-able, didn't mean to leave Hestia out.

Beyond those two, however, you've covered every reasonably well known Greek deity, as well as the most important heroes.

Obviously theres no way I can cover every character within a mythology. But I think certainly stats for perhaps the top 20 (most interesting and/or recognizable) deities plus maybe 8 heroes/villains (not counting the monsters) is a decent tally.

However, some of the Greek monsters (because there are so many) may end up in a Monster Book rather than within the Immortals Index: Greek Mythos book. Having lots of fun brainstorming for the Elder Titans and Primogenitors, including folding some abominations into the mix.

Incidently, did anyone notice that 4E changed the Abominations from the children of the gods to the weapons of the gods. May seem like a minor point but they are clearly no longer portfolio based.

Were you planning to present them as monsters, PCs, or both?

I was planning to present the heroes as PCs and probably elite (?) NPCs too. I want to have one hero for each character Class in that respect. So the final tally will probably be eight with some changes to that list. Orpheus will require the Bard Class first naturally (assuming he makes the list). I'll probably try and have a mix of heroes and villains in there too, rather than just all heroes (though many of the 'heroes' were not necessarily good aligned anyway, so that should be easy).

Either way, here's hoping that 4E's improved monster/PC design system lets them come out quickly.

Indeed, however, this won't be my first or even my second 4th Edition book. But I am hoping for a much faster turnover this time around.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
Incidently, did anyone notice that 4E changed the Abominations from the children of the gods to the weapons of the gods. May seem like a minor point but they are clearly no longer portfolio based.
...

Well, this is a minor point; They still are ~sortof~ portfolio based. Blood Fiend = War? (Violence?); Phane = Time; Atropal = Death, Tarrasque = (Strength/Earth?); But they don't call them out as being specifically portfolio based, although they sort of are. Plus, I see this minor fluff change as a plus; One: Deities of fertility are not then rapidly spawning world-ending fiends, and Two: It opens a few more doors with fluff and monster creation involving abominations.
A god of the forge, for example, might specifically set out to build an Anaxim to destroy his enemies. He may later lose control of it, and it goes berserk, killing thousands. Or it may lie dormant in some old forgotten vault guarding an even greater treasure. But it is certain that if you want an anaxim in the game, you don't NEED to have it be an enemy of the deity who created it. (Though you most certainly still can)