4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[poilbrun]

Surely they don't make seperate saves though anyway...do they?

Usually two or three conditions simply require a single save to end, so that seems something of a non-issue.

As I understand it, you make one save per source. Let's say player A uses a power that dazes you and player B uses one that immobilizes you and gives you 5 ongoing damage, you would do one save that would remove daze and one that would remove immobilization and ongoing damage.

What I'm not so sure about is when two different sources give you the same condition: if player A and B daze you, can you be un-dazed once but remain dazed? Make no sense to me, so I ruled it otherwise on the fly during my last session.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there stranger!

Hope married life is treating you well? Give my love to Izzy.

Nice to see you still take an interest here.

As I understand it, you make one save per source. Let's say player A uses a power that dazes you and player B uses one that immobilizes you and gives you 5 ongoing damage, you would do one save that would remove daze and one that would remove immobilization and ongoing damage.

What I'm not so sure about is when two different sources give you the same condition: if player A and B daze you, can you be un-dazed once but remain dazed? Make no sense to me, so I ruled it otherwise on the fly during my last session.

Looking over the PHB it seems to suggest that you do roll for each individual effect.

With the same effect from multiple sources you only make one save.

With a condition track in effect that would mean going up and down the sliding scale rather than negating the effect completely.

 

[Phillip Larwood]

This has been a very interesting conversation so far. A number of things have been brought up and a lot of problems with 4e have been addressed. The discussion of the stunning effect has been of particular interest in this thread because of its obvious implications on Immortal-level play. Of course, I would caution against believing everything that a prefabricated (often mathematical) battle simulation controlled by a single entity for the purpose of evaluating how you can bend or break the rules tells you. Players rarely play like that around the table, or battle opponents in some sort of arena-style situation when there is neither a before nor after.

In my battle-simulation Orcus would have a horde of about 100 undead and demons around him and would be immune to stun attacks because he can.

It will be interesting to see what Upper Krust does with immortals. The detractors of 4e rightly or wrongly have pointed out that Orcus is now little more than a big combat brute as opposed to the undead spellcasting dynamo he once was and that all epic-level opponents are little more than combat fodder. Will immortal opponents be likewise? Will Odin be little more than a big combat brute with 6 or 7 powers?

Here's an interesting question. How will Eternity Publishing handle the fact that the other player's handbooks might be just around the corner? Will provisions be made in the Immortal Handbooks for barbarian, monk or psion characters? Has this question already been answered?

Is there going to be a single tier after the epic tier or multiple tiers? Are you going to expand on the existing tables (if you can) or come up with your own variations? Will you change the dynamic of character optimization or keep it as is? Will you introduce new builds that are only available to immortal characters?

Can QPs and godly domains even work in a 4e universe (domains are certainly irrelevant to clerics)?

There are so many questions and I haven't even scratched the surface.

By the way, I'm happy to be in both the 1st tier and 2nd tier group of monster winners (with the ruin of ages and mahalat). I didn't even know people have been voting on them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Philip!

This has been a very interesting conversation so far. A number of things have been brought up and a lot of problems with 4e have been addressed. The discussion of the stunning effect has been of particular interest in this thread because of its obvious implications on Immortal-level play. Of course, I would caution against believing everything that a prefabricated (often mathematical) battle simulation controlled by a single entity for the purpose of evaluating how you can bend or break the rules tells you. Players rarely play like that around the table, or battle opponents in some sort of arena-style situation when there is neither a before nor after.

Even so the monsters need to be able to hold up under playtesting scrutiny. Clearly one or two powers are broken as is the stunning mechanic with regards elite and solo monsters.

In my battle-simulation Orcus would have a horde of about 100 undead and demons around him and would be immune to stun attacks because he can.

Unfortunately, designers don't have it so easy.

It will be interesting to see what Upper Krust does with immortals. The detractors of 4e rightly or wrongly have pointed out that Orcus is now little more than a big combat brute as opposed to the undead spellcasting dynamo he once was

None of which actually made him unique.

and that all epic-level opponents are little more than combat fodder. Will immortal opponents be likewise? Will Odin be little more than a big combat brute with 6 or 7 powers?

Possibly. If you can't create a character with 6 or 7 'signature' abilities then I think you lose any and all focus.

Here's an interesting question. How will Eternity Publishing handle the fact that the other player's handbooks might be just around the corner? Will provisions be made in the Immortal Handbooks for barbarian, monk or psion characters? Has this question already been answered?

There won't be direct class extensions in the 4E IH. There will be Portfolio 'classes', some of which will mimic class extensions.

e.g. A 30th-level Fighter with 10 levels of the War portfolio will indirectly mimic a 40th-level Fighter to an extent.

Is there going to be a single tier after the epic tier or multiple tiers?

There will be three extra tiers (at least to start with).

Exalted: 31-40
Immortal: 41-50
Sidereal: 51-60

Are you going to expand on the existing tables (if you can) or come up with your own variations?

Existing Tables of what specifically?

I am currently working on the QP system which will replace EXP above 30th.

Will you change the dynamic of character optimization or keep it as is?

I'll sort of be looking to parallel things where possible to retain the same balance.

Will you introduce new builds that are only available to immortal characters?

I'll be introducing features that are only available to immortals such as pantheon pledges and dimensional organisation membership (need a new name for that one). As well as some new Epic Destinies most likely.

Can QPs and godly domains even work in a 4e universe (domains are certainly irrelevant to clerics)?

Domains will be subsumed by Godly Portfolio 'classes'.

QPs are still relevant to worshippers and things like that.

There are so many questions and I haven't even scratched the surface.

Well thats what I'm here for.

By the way, I'm happy to be in both the 1st tier and 2nd tier group of monster winners (with the ruin of ages and mahalat). I didn't even know people have been voting on them.

Congrats. Not only will you be in Godsend, but you'll also be in the first 4E Gods & Monsters (or rather the Malahat will - albeit my slightly tweaked 4E incarnation of it).

 

[Axolotl]

Hey, glad to see you're switching to 4th edition, from what I've seen I really like most of the changes.

I just have some questions about the 4th edition IH that i was wondering if you could answer.

What exactly is going to be in the 4th Edition Immortal's Handbook?
On your website it says that it's the successor to Ascension. Does this mean that the only things that it will contain are the rules for advanceing a character up as a god ( and to what level?). Will there be rules for artifactes and divine-level magical items? Will there be any stats for monsters in the book? Essentially with the last two questions I just want to know whether or not it's possible to use the book when it's released as opposed to waiting until you release the next book.

Sorry if these questions are something you haven't decided yet or don't want to tell people.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Axolotl mate!

Hey, glad to see you're switching to 4th edition, from what I've seen I really like most of the changes.

I'd like to do both 3.5E and 4E, but if I have to choose I'll be doing 4E. It just seems like the superior and more user (and designer) friendly system.

I just have some questions about the 4th edition IH that i was wondering if you could answer.

If I can.

What exactly is going to be in the 4th Edition Immortal's Handbook?

It'll be a sort of Players Handbook for monsters. So that should give you a good clue.

On your website it says that it's the successor to Ascension.

Its basically Ascension 4E with lots of new ideas.

Does this mean that the only things that it will contain are the rules for advanceing a character up as a god

It will contain 2 new races, 16 Portfolio "Classes", 2 Dimensional "Classes", Pantheon Pledges, Immortal Organisations, Artifacts and probably a short adventure (for Level 30 characters taking them to 31st).

( and to what level?).

Probably 70th. I thought I might be able to get away with 31-60, but I think I may have to go 31-70 now.

Will there be rules for artifactes and divine-level magical items?

Yes.

Will there be any stats for monsters in the book?

Yes. In the adventure. Though only a few. I'll be saving most of the monsters for Gods & Monsters.

Essentially with the last two questions I just want to know whether or not it's possible to use the book when it's released as opposed to waiting until you release the next book.

Yes. Although I won't be able to get every portfolio and every dimension covered in the first Immortals Handbook.

Sorry if these questions are something you haven't decided yet or don't want to tell people.[/QUOTE]

I sort of know the basics at the moment but not necessarily the specifics.

e.g. I'm currently playing about with the QP system and have come across some really interesting possibilities with regard Pantheon building...basically pantheon power tied to worshipper base. Been having some fun working out the power of the Persian Gods versus the Greek Gods circe. 300 B.C. or the power of the Roman Gods versus the Slavic Gods circe. 400 A.D. Interesting applications to modern religion...not that I would ever go there of course.

 

[Axolotl]

Howdy Axolotl mate!

Hey Upper_Krust!

I'd like to do both 3.5E and 4E, but if I have to choose I'll be doing 4E. It just seems like the superior and more user (and designer) friendly system.

I've not looked at the rules in detail yet but I like the basic system ( though I dislike some minor things).

If I can.

Good.

It'll be a sort of Players Handbook for monsters. So that should give you a good clue.

That just confuses me.

Its basically Ascension 4E with lots of new ideas.

That sounds great.

It will contain 2 new races, 16 Portfolio "Classes", 2 Dimensional "Classes", Pantheon Pledges, Immortal Organisations, Artifacts and probably a short adventure (for Level 30 characters taking them to 31st).

New races eh? It all sounds rarther interesting.

Probably 70th. I thought I might be able to get away with 31-60, but I think I may have to go 31-70 now.

No Time Lords then?

Yes.

Good.

Yes. In the adventure. Though only a few. I'll be saving most of the monsters for Gods & Monsters.

I just mean something that allows people to create encounters for god-characters without needing to wait and buy more books or homebrew up new monsters.

Yes. Although I won't be able to get every portfolio and every dimension covered in the first Immortals Handbook.

I understand that not everything can be fit into the first book. What I meant was if it was like the 3rd edition ELH which had not only rules for epic level charicters but also various monsters, organisation, sample NPCs, and epic gaming advice, all of which meant that the product was fully usable on its own.

I sort of know the basics at the moment but not necessarily the specifics.

Understandable.

e.g. I'm currently playing about with the QP system and have come across some really interesting possibilities with regard Pantheon building...basically pantheon power tied to worshipper base. Been having some fun working out the power of the Persian Gods versus the Greek Gods circe. 300 B.C. or the power of the Roman Gods versus the Slavic Gods circe. 400 A.D. Interesting applications to modern religion...not that I would ever go there of course.

It'll be interesting seeing the results (though personally I want nothing more to do with the Greek Gods for as long as I live).

 

[beej]

Something along the lines of Ascension is a good starting book, IMO. As 4e monster creation rules have proven to be a piece of cake (to me, at least), one could just create his own mini-bestiary after U_K releases his rules. I for one look forward to it.

I do hope that it is simpler than 3.5 Ascension, though. While thoroughly enjoyable, it took me hours (or days, because my "gaming time" is actually spread out) to design one immortal under those rules.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Upper_Krust!

Hiya mate!

I've not looked at the rules in detail yet but I like the basic system ( though I dislike some minor things).

Its not perfect but its a heck of an improvement.

That just confuses me.

Stuff that is in the PHB 4E may have some sort of parallel in the Immortals Handbook 4E.

That sounds great. New races eh? It all sounds rarther interesting.

I'll try to make it as interesting as possible.

No Time Lords then?

I may have them as NPCs but not as allowable PCs...at least not in this first book.

Good. I just mean something that allows people to create encounters for god-characters without needing to wait and buy more books or homebrew up new monsters.

Indeed.

I understand that not everything can be fit into the first book. What I meant was if it was like the 3rd edition ELH which had not only rules for epic level charicters but also various monsters, organisation, sample NPCs, and epic gaming advice, all of which meant that the product was fully usable on its own. Understandable.

I now have so many Level 21+ Monsters that I can (and will) fill six monster books.

It'll be interesting seeing the results (though personally I want nothing more to do with the Greek Gods for as long as I live).

It may be more of an optional thing. Not sure if I want to base the power of each mythology solely upon its most successful period in human history since most campaigns won't be using Earth.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy beej!

Something along the lines of Ascension is a good starting book, IMO.

I think so.

As 4e monster creation rules have proven to be a piece of cake (to me, at least), one could just create his own mini-bestiary after U_K releases his rules. I for one look forward to it.

I think the key with (really powerful) monster design is not simply making it the same...only bigger, but in trying to show powers, mechanics and so forth that have not been shown before.

I do hope that it is simpler than 3.5 Ascension, though. While thoroughly enjoyable, it took me hours (or days, because my "gaming time" is actually spread out) to design one immortal under those rules.

I agree with you that Ascension is very time intensive, even though I boiled down 3E as far as I could it doesn't go far enough and I think its too complicated - or more specifically, it has too many working pieces.

4E Immortal PCs will have the same number of powers as 30th-level PCs with the caveat of the addition of an Aura (as standard) and slightly more feats. Other than that I expect the same amount of 'working out'.