4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[beej]

Hey U_K!

1st off, I'm glad to hear that you're interested in Philippine Mythology. I'm a little busy right now (exams for my students, plus DMing two games while playing in one), but I'll give you an email about it when things calm down on my end.

Now, back on topic:

I really envision solo monsters as taking a l-o-n-g time to finish off.

Yes and no. I haven't played a lot of games, but I must say, I've DM'd a fair number already (including KotS, but we haven't got to Kalarel yet. They just finished the first level of the Keep). Here is my analysis:

* DMing it like a slugfest makes it dragging. When I started being very descriptive with how they hit and miss the Thing in the Water (somewhere in the KotS Caves section), and having his attacks vary here and there, it strangely stopped being repetitive. The players started to try different things, instead of spamming AW's, just to see how the ooze "reacted". It still took a loong time, but hardly anyone at the table noticed.
Sidenote; roleplaying a non-sentient ooze, as a DM, was a good theatrical exercise. My better half (she's in the animation industry) once told me that if you can animate a faceless, featureless white sack and manage to give your viewers a sense of emotion, then you are a good animator. Solos are kind of like that.
(I hope I made sense)

* Giving them solos that are more than two levels above them makes it dragging (soldiers are especially susceptible to this, with their high defenses). At level 1, a black dragon (4 solo) was deadly and tough, while a white (3 solo) was just deadly. The trend goes on; at level 2 I threw a 4th level solo at one group, and it didn't go dragging, while a 6th level solo (a "downgraded", solo'd Angel of Valor) was just too boring for a party of 3rd level adventurers. Sure they can fight an encounter up to four levels higher than they are, and solos are no different. But still, I recommend keeping it low for the solos.

*Players going nova. If all of them uses their daily power/s on the same round, the rest of the fight indeed becomes repetitive. I don't know if this has any actual bearing, but in my personal experience, spreading out the Dailies means something different happens each time.

For the record, I've already seen a solo fight go by very fast. Serves me right for making a solo gnome.
Seriously though, the party was able to use the grab grass terrain very effectively (something I originally designed to have the gnome use), and they had combat advantage most of the time. It took them six rounds.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

U_K!

...
...
I see anything less than 16 as an opening stat as being bordering on a waste of time.

This is probably true; But still, unless you want to do something not supported by rules, it is rather hard to make a character that is bad without setting out to do so. (But I do agree; 16+ is an assumed standard; I'd rather have that than having an 18 or 20 throw everything off)

One thing I am worried about is the fact that PC ability scores affect the DCs of their own powers, whereas monster Ability Scores do not affect their saving throws.

Which means that a PC only needs a +14 bonus to require all monsters to roll a natural 20 to save. Combine that with a power that has auto stun (Save ends) and the monster is rendered obsolete.

Ahh the Orb-Wizard. Thankfully, there are very few save-penalizing things. (Orb-wizard being the only ability modifier based one I can think of) But yea, if the foe is saving at -11, non-elites have no chance. Save penalizing things should be weak, as well as few and far between.

Well I think even if you tailor the encounter XP to the number of PCs you would still face the same problems of requiring more/better healing and so forth. Though again, this may be a problem that will lessen the higher you ascend.

We actually had him pinned in the circle, so, and I'm only guessing, thats what was allowing him to regenerate...compounding our woes.

I really envision solo monsters as taking a l-o-n-g time to finish off.

Well, last session I ran an encounter with a Solo foe. (solo version of the immolith demon; reduced in level to 7) The party was level 6, a 5 man squad (Fighter/ranger; Rogue/Warlock; Infernal Warlock; Warlord/paladin; and Ranger-TWF); The party had some extraneous healing available from the warlord, but it really wasn't necessary.
The party had one advantage: They knew pretty much what the demon could do. (Fire-related crap; necrotic nastieness; and that cold was likely it's weakness) The Fighter had Fire/Necrotic resisting armor, an the Warlord had obtained a Frostbrand in the 2nd adventure.
The Demon went down hard; Warlord used his paladin mark; and the demon focused all it's firepower on the warlord: Throwing Lava at him; Grappling him and Pinning him IN LAVA while blasting him. But the end result was that after about 5 rounds, the demon died, most PCs took ~6-12 total damage (except the warlord who was down to 3 Hp and had used one healing surge on his Warlord heal power) The frost brand, and (ab)use of the monster's weaknesses probably cut down the duration of the fight by 2/3rds. The Warlord did like ~25 dmg per round; he did like 50+ with his daily; poor demon had ~400 Hp, and the party composition is basically 3 & 1/2 Strikers (Fighter in the party is a heavy damage dealer primarily)

But yea, fight duration depends on many factors; A monster weakness can turn a relativly weak power (like a Frost Brand; or an At-Will power) into something more monsterous than a daily power. (Divine Challenge on a radiant-weak monster is totally going to kill it quick unless it pounds the paladin)

But it also depends on party composition; My group that I run for is mostly strikers and heavy hitters; They take less damage in fights because the fighter does his job and the three strikers kill the monsters one by one. A group of 5 Clerics/Paladins can be a battle of attrition, since with that group each character can spend all their healing surges, giving them many times more HP than normal. It really can vary. 5 Wizards would spam status conditions and zones of difficult/damaging terrain such that most intelligent foes would just give up.

Actually, don't tell my group this, but I have some pretty rough encounters planned for tomorrows game. Really nasty encounters involving strategically organized monster roles (like a fight of 2 Soldiers, 2 Lurkers, and 8 Minions) and biased terrain (narrow halls with a Hellhound up in front and a leader-type guy in the back to make the PCs earn every square they move) as well as other fun things. I've been a bit soft with them up until now; Now that they are level 7, its time I take the proverbial dials to '11'.

 

[Frobojoe]

Well, I put it on my list because it is so powerful, it deserves mention. (There was a discussion in either this thread or another about stunning at immortal levels and solo opponents) No one likes to be stunned. Anything that stuns for more than 1 turn and isn't a daily is probably broken. (Are there any such powers?) (Probably is at least one) And it would earn #1 position unless something is done about stunning at higher levels, where it will no doubt become common if unchecked.

There are several stun (save ends) powers in the PHB.

But yea, it should be at the top of the list, but, as DM, using stunning foes seems like a cheat. I ran a session a few weeks ago where the party fought a monster that Stunned (Save ends), the Fighter. He never got a turn. He was so bored. It just doesn't seem fair to have easy-access 'save-or-wish-you-were-dead-so-you-could-roll-up-a-stun-resistant-character'. There definitely needs to be some sort of resistance/immunity/mitigation against stunning. Especially because there are so few conditions, so Stunning is almost needed to round out the list.

Agreed.

 

[S'mon]

Hey U_K!

Hiya beej mate!

1st off, I'm glad to hear that you're interested in Philippine Mythology. I'm a little busy right now (exams for my students, plus DMing two games while playing in one), but I'll give you an email about it when things calm down on my end.

Thanks. Yes Philippine mythology was surprisingly interesting.

Now, back on topic:

Yes and no. I haven't played a lot of games, but I must say, I've DM'd a fair number already (including KotS, but we haven't got to Kalarel yet. They just finished the first level of the Keep). Here is my analysis:

I bought the adventure and I now see that tactically we kept him in his magic circle which was giving him Regeneration 5. So that may have dragged it out a bit.

However, he is a Level 8 Elite and we were Level 1's and 2's.

* DMing it like a slugfest makes it dragging. When I started being very descriptive with how they hit and miss the Thing in the Water (somewhere in the KotS Caves section), and having his attacks vary here and there, it strangely stopped being repetitive. The players started to try different things, instead of spamming AW's, just to see how the ooze "reacted". It still took a loong time, but hardly anyone at the table noticed.

Thats cool.

Sidenote; roleplaying a non-sentient ooze, as a DM, was a good theatrical exercise. My better half (she's in the animation industry) once told me that if you can animate a faceless, featureless white sack and manage to give your viewers a sense of emotion, then you are a good animator. Solos are kind of like that.
(I hope I made sense)

Interesting.

* Giving them solos that are more than two levels above them makes it dragging (soldiers are especially susceptible to this, with their high defenses). At level 1, a black dragon (4 solo) was deadly and tough, while a white (3 solo) was just deadly. The trend goes on; at level 2 I threw a 4th level solo at one group, and it didn't go dragging, while a 6th level solo (a "downgraded", solo'd Angel of Valor) was just too boring for a party of 3rd level adventurers. Sure they can fight an encounter up to four levels higher than they are, and solos are no different. But still, I recommend keeping it low for the solos.

Sound advice. I'll try and stick to it when designing my immortal adventures.

Maybe Solo +3 for the absolute final boss.

*Players going nova. If all of them uses their daily power/s on the same round, the rest of the fight indeed becomes repetitive. I don't know if this has any actual bearing, but in my personal experience, spreading out the Dailies means something different happens each time.

We all blew our powers before we had Kalarel surrounded, so even though I hit him with my dwarf's Daily power he must have been back to full hp via regen, before we started making a serious dent in him.

For the record, I've already seen a solo fight go by very fast. Serves me right for making a solo gnome.

Seriously though, the party was able to use the grab grass terrain very effectively (something I originally designed to have the gnome use), and they had combat advantage most of the time. It took them six rounds.

What was the level difference (if any)?

 

[S'mon]

U_K!

Hey Ltheb dude!

This is probably true; But still, unless you want to do something not supported by rules, it is rather hard to make a character that is bad without setting out to do so. (But I do agree; 16+ is an assumed standard; I'd rather have that than having an 18 or 20 throw everything off)

Exactly.

Ahh the Orb-Wizard. Thankfully, there are very few save-penalizing things. (Orb-wizard being the only ability modifier based one I can think of) But yea, if the foe is saving at -11, non-elites have no chance. Save penalizing things should be weak, as well as few and far between.

The Orb may have to go...?

I am worried about the ability score problem with monster saves. I see that being a possible annoyance at 31+ levels. I'm thinking that it may make me change my mind about doubling the ability score boosts.

Theoretically the best score you could get (with continuing the core ability score progression) at Level 60 would be 37 (Base 20, +8 up to 30, +9 up to 60) which is a +13 bonus. Thats just about playable I imagine.

The previous problem (PCs hitting monster defenses) we can cover up with a few feats/portfolio powers.

Well, last session I ran an encounter with a Solo foe. (solo version of the immolith demon; reduced in level to 7) The party was level 6, a 5 man squad (Fighter/ranger; Rogue/Warlock; Infernal Warlock; Warlord/paladin; and Ranger-TWF); The party had some extraneous healing available from the warlord, but it really wasn't necessary.
The party had one advantage: They knew pretty much what the demon could do. (Fire-related crap; necrotic nastieness; and that cold was likely it's weakness) The Fighter had Fire/Necrotic resisting armor, an the Warlord had obtained a Frostbrand in the 2nd adventure.
The Demon went down hard; Warlord used his paladin mark; and the demon focused all it's firepower on the warlord: Throwing Lava at him; Grappling him and Pinning him IN LAVA while blasting him. But the end result was that after about 5 rounds, the demon died, most PCs took ~6-12 total damage (except the warlord who was down to 3 Hp and had used one healing surge on his Warlord heal power) The frost brand, and (ab)use of the monster's weaknesses probably cut down the duration of the fight by 2/3rds. The Warlord did like ~25 dmg per round; he did like 50+ with his daily; poor demon had ~400 Hp, and the party composition is basically 3 & 1/2 Strikers (Fighter in the party is a heavy damage dealer primarily)

Its sort of self defeating but I think I would be wary of using Solo monsters on their own.

But yea, fight duration depends on many factors; A monster weakness can turn a relativly weak power (like a Frost Brand; or an At-Will power) into something more monsterous than a daily power. (Divine Challenge on a radiant-weak monster is totally going to kill it quick unless it pounds the paladin)

I was initially thinking that Vulnerabilities should scale with level though I am now wondering if thats a good idea.

But it also depends on party composition; My group that I run for is mostly strikers and heavy hitters; They take less damage in fights because the fighter does his job and the three strikers kill the monsters one by one. A group of 5 Clerics/Paladins can be a battle of attrition, since with that group each character can spend all their healing surges, giving them many times more HP than normal. It really can vary. 5 Wizards would spam status conditions and zones of difficult/damaging terrain such that most intelligent foes would just give up.

My earlier assessment could have just been as a result of a too low level and inexperienced (with regards 4E) party.

Actually, don't tell my group this, but I have some pretty rough encounters planned for tomorrows game. Really nasty encounters involving strategically organized monster roles (like a fight of 2 Soldiers, 2 Lurkers, and 8 Minions) and biased terrain (narrow halls with a Hellhound up in front and a leader-type guy in the back to make the PCs earn every square they move) as well as other fun things. I've been a bit soft with them up until now; Now that they are level 7, its time I take the proverbial dials to '11'.

I promise not to tell them.

 

[beej]

U_K!

What was the level difference (if any)?

Two (the party was 1st level while the "nuno" was a Gnome Arcanist+Warlock Template, solo'd with extra at-wills). The GrAb Grass Terrain really made the difference there. Low Str+Required Athletics check killed the gnome after it had used up all it's teleportation powers for the encounter.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Heya U_K, Adslahnit here. I just picked up my copy of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide yesterday, and I thought that you might find some of the monsters in it interesting. Here are a few previews of the high-paragon-level and epic-level monsters in the book:

[SBLOCK=Banelar Naga, Level 18 Solo Controller]
Ranged: Banelar Arc (standard; at-will)
Ranged 10; +22 vs. Reflex; 2d6 + 8 psychic damage, and the target is stunned (save ends). The arc attacks up to two secondary targets within 10 squares; +22 vs. Reflex; 1d4+8 psychic damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).

Ranged: Baneful Utterance (immediate reaction, when damaged by an attack; at-will) ✦ Charm
The banelar naga makes an attack against the attacker; ranged 10; +22 vs. Will; the target is dazed (save ends) and slides 3 squares.
[/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK=Manshoon, Level 28 Elite Controller]
Ranged: Dominating Gaze (minor; recharge 6) ✦ Charm
Ranged 5; +32 vs. Will; the target is dominated (save ends, with a –2 penalty to the saving throw). Aftereffect: The target is dazed (save ends). Manshoon can dominate only one creature at a time.

Ranged: Vascular Purge (standard; encounter) ✦ Fear, Healing
Ranged 20; +33 vs. Fortitude; 2d10 + 10 damage, and the target is stunned (save ends). All the target’s allies that can see the target are dazed (save ends). Undead creatures within 3 squares of the target regain 15 hit points.
[/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK=Szass Tam, Level 30 Elite Artillery (Leader)]
Ranged: Flensing (standard; sustain minor; encounter) ✦ Fear, Necrotic
Ranged 20; +35 vs. Fortitude; 3d6 + 11 necrotic damage, and the target is stunned (save ends). All allies of the target within line of sight take a –2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends). Szass Tam must make a new attack roll against the target when he sustains this effect. He can change the target as a standard action.
[/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK=Terpenzi (Ancient Bone Naga), Level 30 Solo Controller]
Captivating Presence (Charm, Psychic) aura sight; while Terpenzi is not bloodied, any enemy that attacks it takes 15 psychic damage or becomes dazed until the start of that creature’s next turn (enemy’s choice). An enemy that is already dazed becomes stunned instead.

Ranged: Enslaving Gaze (minor; recharge 6) ✦ Charm
Ranged 10; +35 vs. Will; the target is dazed (save ends). First Failed Save: The target is dazed and cannot attack Terpenzi (save ends both). Second Failed Save: The target is dominated (save ends). All saves to end these effects take a –2 penalty.
[/SBLOCK]

You'll notice that all of them have their own method of action denial, be it through dazing, stunning, or domination. Looks like the epic levels are stunlock wars .

Now, the one thing that will be of most interest to you is the new contender for the most powerful official creature statted: Blazing Rorn the Fury, level 33 solo primordial. Yes, "primordial" is his monster role, and they never explain what that role entails. Where Orcus specializes in burst "damage" (or outright KOing) against a single creature, Rorn specializes in laying the pain on an entire party, though this is unfortunately easily mitigated by a Demigod's Divine Regeneration daily utility. He's hilariously completely immune to characters below level 20, though I find this a bit unnecessary since you'll want to be at least level 28 before taking him on. Here's an example of what he's packing:

[SBLOCK=Blazing Rorn the Fury, Level 33 Solo Primordial]
Blazing Aura (Fire) aura 10; creatures within the aura lose resistance fire. Each creature that starts its turn in the aura is pulled 2 squares at the start of its turn. While Rorn is bloodied, each creature that starts its turn in the aura also takes 20 fire damage.
HP 1,545; Bloodied 772; see also fury of burning stars and blazing action
AC 50; Fortitude 51, Reflex 45, Will 48; see also volcanic retort
Immune attacks by characters below level 20; fire
Saving Throws +5; whenever an attack applies an effect to Rorn that a save can end, he makes an immediate saving throw. If it succeeds, he is unaffected by the effect. Rorn makes saving throws at the end of each of his turns as normal.

Close: Volcanic Retort (immediate reaction, when hit by an attack; at-will) ✦ Fire
Close burst 2 (burst 5 while Rorn is bloodied); +36 vs Reflex; 2d8 + 13 fire damage.
[/SBLOCK]

I'm a little worried that a primordial can be a "mere" level 33 solo though. Primordials (also known as "Dawn Titans" in FR) are supposed to be on par with the gods, after all. I guess you could hand-wave it by saying that Blazing Rorn the Fury is one of the much weaker primordials though.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Oops, double post. Ignore.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

It is depressing to hear that 4E Epic combat, as of the FR campaign guide, has become a stun-battle. Isn't that what WotC said they wanted to avoid in combat? I guess the FR team didn't get the memo.

A solution, although a lame one, would just to give all epic level combatants a sort of daze/stun conversion, where a dazed combatant could still take a full turn, but at a -2 to all attack and damage rolls, and a Stunned combatant could act at -4.
Also I like Rorn's Saving Throw mechanic; evidently, the designers thought that one through a bit; but why the Immunity to Character Level <20? It seems oddly metagame, but I guess you could beat him with really, really lucky rolls.

 

[S'mon]

Thanks for the reply beej!

Heya U_K, Adslahnit here.

Hiya mate - Krusty here!

I just picked up my copy of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide yesterday, and I thought that you might find some of the monsters in it interesting.

I plan to get that book, though it wasn't available in London about 3 days ago - when I went shopping, and I spent so much money that I may now have trouble carrying all the books when I go home on Sunday - so I may just buy that book via ebay next week or something.

Incidently (amongst other things), I did get the Scion Hero; Demigod and God books. I have glanced through them all and am currently reading over Hero. Some interesting ideas, though the actual mechanics I am not overly enamoured with. I do like the idea of Epic Ability scores being separately treated, although I was wondering if perhaps differentiating between Mortal scores 1-30 and Immortal Scores 31-40 may be a good idea.

The highest mortal score being 30. Base 20 + 8 from levelling + 2 from Demigod Epic Destiny.

Here are a few previews of the high-paragon-level and epic-level monsters in the book:

Thanks.

You'll notice that all of them have their own method of action denial, be it through dazing, stunning, or domination. Looks like the epic levels are stunlock wars .

Indeed, though it does sort of fit the monsters descriptions to have such powers.

One way of getting around the problem without eradicating it may be (in true 4E fashion) limited powers. Either a re-roll or a flat out ability to overcome a condition once per encounter...possibly by using an action point or as a feature of an Epic Destiny.

I think this may work better than simply making a character immune, even if some characters do end up immune.

Now, the one thing that will be of most interest to you is the new contender for the most powerful official creature statted: Blazing Rorn the Fury, level 33 solo primordial. Yes, "primordial" is his monster role, and they never explain what that role entails. Where Orcus specializes in burst "damage" (or outright KOing) against a single creature, Rorn specializes in laying the pain on an entire party, though this is unfortunately easily mitigated by a Demigod's Divine Regeneration daily utility. He's hilariously completely immune to characters below level 20, though I find this a bit unnecessary since you'll want to be at least level 28 before taking him on. Here's an example of what he's packing:

That immunity to < 20 is very funny.

I'm a little worried that a primordial can be a "mere" level 33 solo though. Primordials (also known as "Dawn Titans" in FR) are supposed to be on par with the gods, after all. I guess you could hand-wave it by saying that Blazing Rorn the Fury is one of the much weaker primordials though.

Something I realised early on is that Primordial just means Immortal from the Elemental Chaos, whereas Immortal implies one who 'evolved' from the Astral Plane.

So don't pay too much heed to it. Primordial is not a level of power anymore than Immortal.

...and you ain't seen my Primordials yet anyway.