D&D 5E 5e Hobgoblin stat block

[Ruin Explorer]

So, how long do you think it will take before the first player of a fighter character asks to "learn to fight like a hobgoblin"?

Pretty much immediately. It's nuts. It's also kind of poorly explained (maybe the real entry explains it better but I am skeptical). I can see why two people working together would give a big bonus to hit, or open one up to a sneaky attack, but apparently it also opens one up to just taking massively more damage from a straightforward attack? 100% of the time, with no special check, Reaction from the other Hobbie or anything? It seems a bit off, even to me.

Especially as this is 5E, and the PCs have no real control over the positioning of the monsters, so you can't use the 4E answer to this, which was to use At-Will forced-movement powers to shove Hobgoblins apart. If there were like, ten of them, there'd just be no avoiding it happening with most of them.

And will 5e have an option for that apart from "take 5 levels of rogue"?

Good question!

 

[Nebulous]

Who says they all have to be fought at once?

I think a 1st level fighter up against 3 hobgoblin warriors should be absolutely shredded, and that's what the rules replicate. I guess i've never worried hardly at all about CR throughout the years, i've just eyeballed the monster stats and built encounters dynamically. There are far, far, far too many variables to break down what is "fair" into something like a chess move.

 

[Wolfskin]

So, how long do you think it will take before the first player of a fighter character asks to "learn to fight like a hobgoblin"?

I can totally see the following situation at my table:
-'You see three hobgoblins approaching, side by side.'
-'I charge at them and stab the one in the middle with my sword'
-'Good roll, one down! The one to your right moves out of your peripheral vision, while the other one swings its sword at you'
-'Alright, bring it on!'
-'The hobgoblin in front of you doesn't actually hit you...'
-'Ah, silly gob! It missed!'
-'...but he makes you shift your position and focus your guard on it. You feel an acute pain on your side as the other hobgoblin's sword bites through your armor and into your flesh. Take 12 damage.'
-'What the f**k, man?! There's no way a CR 1/2 monster can deal that much damage. Did he crit or something?'
-'Nope, they're just fighting really smart'
-'F**k this! I'm back to play Neverwinter'

 

[Nebulous]

Pretty much immediately. It's nuts. It's also kind of poorly explained (maybe the real entry explains it better but I am skeptical). I can see why two people working together would give a big bonus to hit, or open one up to a sneaky attack, but apparently it also opens one up to just taking massively more damage from a straightforward attack? 100% of the time, with no special check, Reaction from the other Hobbie or anything? It seems a bit off, even to me.

I agree though, the damage output from multiple hobgoblins does seem far more severe than the flanking bonuses they used to get. Sigh. I guess this is where DM fiat will come into play with 5e, with house rules off the bat. Which i would really rather see the rules handle better instead of automatically feeling like i need to tweak it.

That said though, it is an EASY fix. That 2-12 damage range can easily be a fixed number. I dont' think anyone would find a +2 damage bonus from adjacent hobgoblins a sorely broken mechanic.

 

[Nagol]

I agree though, the damage output from multiple hobgoblins does seem far more severe than the flanking bonuses they used to get. Sigh. I guess this is where DM fiat will come into play with 5e, with house rules off the bat. Which i would really rather see the rules handle better instead of automatically feeling like i need to tweak it.

That said though, it is an EASY fix. That 2-12 damage range can easily be a fixed number. I dont' think anyone would find a +2 damage bonus from adjacent hobgoblins a sorely broken mechanic.

So that's AFTER the fix restricting the additional damage to a melee attack right? So the hobgoblin archers 150' away aren't getting the extra damage just because the goblin skirmishers arrived in the camp.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I am really wondering: are they going to fix issues like this before the Monster Manual is released? I do believe 1d8+1+2d6 = 12.5 damage on a hit for a Challenge 1/2, 100xp monster is going to be over the top. It would probably be fine if it was 1d6 extra damage. The MM that came with 4e was full of stuff like this. Mostly the opposite way though, monsters that did way to low damage. The "overpowered" monsters ended up being the norm from MM3 and onwards.

I think [MENTION=6777168]Wolfskin[/MENTION]'s explanation* of the extra damage is fine. It's just the math of it I don't like.

*In my 4e party we have a Rogue that has taken a few powers/feats that lets him sneak attack if: the monster doesn't have any adjacent allies or if there is an ally adjacent to the monster. As a Rogue, he also gets sneak attack if he is before somebody on the initiative in the first round. He also has an encounter power that lets him shift 6 squares. He always manages to get combat advantage and sneak attack. The 5e hobgoblin is made after the same pattern, he nearly always find a soft spot.

 

[Agamon]

So, how long do you think it will take before the first player of a fighter character asks to "learn to fight like a hobgoblin"?

Right before a player gets a punch in the face.

Luckily for my dainty knuckles and the faces of my players, my players understand how the game works.

 

[Thaumaturge]

Right before a player gets a punch in the face.

Luckily for my dainty knuckles and the faces of my players, my players understand how the game works.

Just between us DMs, gauntlets are a thing.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Alessandro Guarita]

About the CR: the cleric sheet made it clear that it's more than a encounter build measure. It's an overall monster power metric. Some characters abilities will affect some monster depending of its challenge.

See the "Destroy Undead" 5th-level ability on cleric sheet.

 

[the Jester]

I am really wondering: are they going to fix issues like this before the Monster Manual is released?

I, on the other hand, find it amusing to label things like this "issues" before the game is even released.

I think this is fine. It seems like the assumption is that a party of 1st level pcs will have a tough fight against hobgoblins, even when they outnumber the hobbos 2:1. That's about right imho.