Ruin Explorer
Legend
I am now considering trying to provoke you into a rules argument of your "holding off rules-arguing" rule.
Thaumaturge.
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
D&D 5E 5e Hobgoblin stat block
- Thread starter Thaumaturge
- Start date
LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
Blackwarder
Adventurer
Reading through this thread I'll say what I've said before:
I'm happy that they left the wording on the ability as it is since it leave it to DM interpretation, so a Hobgoblin fighting alongside wild wolf can be counted as fighting alongside an ally by one DM while by another it might not count as fighting alongside an ally.
I think that's a strength rather than a weakness of the system, D&D isn't a board game or a computer game with defined and finite set of rules, let players and DM define what they see as logical withing the game world. Less rules more rulings.
Warder
I'm happy that they left the wording on the ability as it is since it leave it to DM interpretation, so a Hobgoblin fighting alongside wild wolf can be counted as fighting alongside an ally by one DM while by another it might not count as fighting alongside an ally.
I think that's a strength rather than a weakness of the system, D&D isn't a board game or a computer game with defined and finite set of rules, let players and DM define what they see as logical withing the game world. Less rules more rulings.
Warder
Nebulous
Legend
While i do agree with this in many ways, i can also see it starting heated arguments, particularly when a PCs life is at stake with a ruling he vehemently disagrees with because the rules are open ended. I would still just allow the bonus only with other trained with the military advantage. And even then i would probably fiddle with the 2d6 as well. But what I LOVE is that 5e seems like you can fiddle and change and there is not a game-wide ripple effect, so it's like the tinker DM's dream.
Thaumaturge
Wandering. Not lost. (He/they)
I agreed with you on this before, and I do again.
My one concern is in Organized Play adventures. The cycle, in the past, has been for players to optimize characters and for adventure writers to build ridiculous, but technically on CR/level, encounters. I'm afraid hob archers with turtle/rat/goblin allies might actually be a thing that happens in such a setting.
Which is, I guess, what many people participate in OP for. So maybe it's not a problem.
Thaumaturge.
Blackwarder
Adventurer
Well I can't comment on the OP adventure design, that remain to be seen, but I sure hope that WotC directions to its adventure writers would be "don't do cheesy stuff".
Warder
Warder
Thaumaturge
Wandering. Not lost. (He/they)
Blackwarder
Adventurer
Last edited:
keterys
First Post
As far as I can tell, the only way it works is if PCs can't do cheesy stuff, to start the cycle.
So, don't hold your breath.
Thaumaturge
Wandering. Not lost. (He/they)
A fa[n]tasy world I'm sure.
Warder
No doubt.
Of course, players might [always] argue the opposite causality.
But yeah, I'm not holding my breath.
Thaumaturge.
Jester David
Hero
Today I put my money where my mouth was and ran four quick playtest combats. I printed out the pregens and randomly grabbed four sheets and ended up with the melee fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue.
I ran four encounters using two scenerios. One was a straight up fight with no surprise. The kind where you open a door in a dungeon and there are hobgoblins. The second was an ambush situation where the goblinoids wait for the PCs to pass then strike.
In all four encounters the party will have the fighter and cleric walking abreast with the rogue behind them and the wizard behind the rogue.
I also opted to not have the wizard use spells, to simulate not wanting to waste resources "on a couple o' gobbos".
Encounter One
Initiative is rolled. The order is wizard, rogue, hobgoblin, fighter, cleric.
Wizard fires off a ray of frost and misses, the rogue hides behind the fighter, and the hobgoblins charge forward and miss the fighter. The cleric misses a hobgoblin and the fighter also wiffs. The next round starts and the wizard misses another RoF.
At this point I realize the real danger of the hobgoblins is their AC. They're hard buggers to hit.
But the hidden rogue fires his bow from behind cover and almost kills a hobgoblin. The hobgoblins manage to drop the fighter but the cleric brings him right back up. The wizard switches to shocking graps and finishes off the injured goblin wthe the rogue moves to flank with the cleric and drops the other hobbie.
No Deaths, one dropped PC, one expended spell slot.
Encounter Two
Initiative is rolled. Rogue, wizard, cleric, fighter, hobgoblins.
With surprise, the hobgoblins get to attack first. They both charge the unsuspecting wizard... and miss.
Surprise over, the rogue jumps up and kills a goblin on the wizard, who then shocking grasps a hobgoblin. The cleric moves into the fray and finishes off the injured hobgoblin before the fighter can even act.
Worst. Ambush. Ever.
No Deaths, no dropped PC, no expended spell slots.
Encounter Three
A second Ambush.
Initiative is rolled. Cleric, hobgoblins, wizard, rogue, fighter.
The hobgoblins slip out. The first misses the wizard but the second hits and rolls really well for damage. Dead wizard. Yeah, dead dead. Exactly double hp.
The cleric blasts a hobgoblin with sacred flame but rolls ass for damage. The hobgoblins act again, and drop the rogue. Things are looking bad.
The fighter moves up and misses. The cleric attacks again with sacred flame but more bad damage. Still two on two. The goblins move up and drop the cleric.
At this point I almost gave up and just called the fight a TPK. But I decided to stick with it.
The fighter strikes and hits the injured goblin. Things are looking up. But the remaining goblin strikes at the fighter, dealing a nasty blow. The figher misses the next strike but the hobgoblin doesn't. The fighter is down!
I've been rolling death saves this whole time. The cleric's at one success and one failure while the rogue is two failures and one success. Things are bad. But at that point, the cleric rolls a natural 20! They're up! There's a hard choice between healing the rogue and fighter, but the cleric opts to heal the fighter. And the rogue bleeds out. The fighter stands and introduces the hobgoblin to his javelin. He ded.
Two Deaths, four dropped PC, one expended spell slot.
Encounter Four
The second direct fight.
Initiative is hobgoblins, wizard, rogue, cleric, fighter.
The hobgoblins rush forward and wail on the poor fighter, dropping him. Technically the first drops him and the second misses the cleric.
The cleric and wizard unleash spells with minimal effects but the rogue moves up and kills a hobgoblin. A lot of wiffing follows as spells are ignored and the one remaining hobgoblin manages to drop the rogue.
With two party members down, the cleric opts to heal the fighter who continues the proud wiffing tradution of Group 4. The hobgoblin smacks the fighter again but doesn't kill him before the onslaught of sacred fire and shocking grasp wears him down.
No Deaths, two dropped PC, one expended spell slot.
I'll have to run another couple of encounters later with one hobgoblin taking point and another shoot their bow. But I expect simmilar results.
Really, Encounters 1, 2 and 4 could have been all one party as only two spell slots were expended. That would have been most of their adventuring day, but they might feel bold enough for another encounter. Especially with the wizard still rocking all their spells.
Hobgoblins are tough, but not overly deadly. The fights are a little swingy, but if the wizard was willing to expend a spell things would go much smoother (but then I'd need to know what more than cantrips do).
I ran four encounters using two scenerios. One was a straight up fight with no surprise. The kind where you open a door in a dungeon and there are hobgoblins. The second was an ambush situation where the goblinoids wait for the PCs to pass then strike.
In all four encounters the party will have the fighter and cleric walking abreast with the rogue behind them and the wizard behind the rogue.
I also opted to not have the wizard use spells, to simulate not wanting to waste resources "on a couple o' gobbos".
Encounter One
Initiative is rolled. The order is wizard, rogue, hobgoblin, fighter, cleric.
Wizard fires off a ray of frost and misses, the rogue hides behind the fighter, and the hobgoblins charge forward and miss the fighter. The cleric misses a hobgoblin and the fighter also wiffs. The next round starts and the wizard misses another RoF.
At this point I realize the real danger of the hobgoblins is their AC. They're hard buggers to hit.
But the hidden rogue fires his bow from behind cover and almost kills a hobgoblin. The hobgoblins manage to drop the fighter but the cleric brings him right back up. The wizard switches to shocking graps and finishes off the injured goblin wthe the rogue moves to flank with the cleric and drops the other hobbie.
No Deaths, one dropped PC, one expended spell slot.
Encounter Two
Initiative is rolled. Rogue, wizard, cleric, fighter, hobgoblins.
With surprise, the hobgoblins get to attack first. They both charge the unsuspecting wizard... and miss.
Surprise over, the rogue jumps up and kills a goblin on the wizard, who then shocking grasps a hobgoblin. The cleric moves into the fray and finishes off the injured hobgoblin before the fighter can even act.
Worst. Ambush. Ever.
No Deaths, no dropped PC, no expended spell slots.
Encounter Three
A second Ambush.
Initiative is rolled. Cleric, hobgoblins, wizard, rogue, fighter.
The hobgoblins slip out. The first misses the wizard but the second hits and rolls really well for damage. Dead wizard. Yeah, dead dead. Exactly double hp.
The cleric blasts a hobgoblin with sacred flame but rolls ass for damage. The hobgoblins act again, and drop the rogue. Things are looking bad.
The fighter moves up and misses. The cleric attacks again with sacred flame but more bad damage. Still two on two. The goblins move up and drop the cleric.
At this point I almost gave up and just called the fight a TPK. But I decided to stick with it.
The fighter strikes and hits the injured goblin. Things are looking up. But the remaining goblin strikes at the fighter, dealing a nasty blow. The figher misses the next strike but the hobgoblin doesn't. The fighter is down!
I've been rolling death saves this whole time. The cleric's at one success and one failure while the rogue is two failures and one success. Things are bad. But at that point, the cleric rolls a natural 20! They're up! There's a hard choice between healing the rogue and fighter, but the cleric opts to heal the fighter. And the rogue bleeds out. The fighter stands and introduces the hobgoblin to his javelin. He ded.
Two Deaths, four dropped PC, one expended spell slot.
Encounter Four
The second direct fight.
Initiative is hobgoblins, wizard, rogue, cleric, fighter.
The hobgoblins rush forward and wail on the poor fighter, dropping him. Technically the first drops him and the second misses the cleric.
The cleric and wizard unleash spells with minimal effects but the rogue moves up and kills a hobgoblin. A lot of wiffing follows as spells are ignored and the one remaining hobgoblin manages to drop the rogue.
With two party members down, the cleric opts to heal the fighter who continues the proud wiffing tradution of Group 4. The hobgoblin smacks the fighter again but doesn't kill him before the onslaught of sacred fire and shocking grasp wears him down.
No Deaths, two dropped PC, one expended spell slot.
I'll have to run another couple of encounters later with one hobgoblin taking point and another shoot their bow. But I expect simmilar results.
Really, Encounters 1, 2 and 4 could have been all one party as only two spell slots were expended. That would have been most of their adventuring day, but they might feel bold enough for another encounter. Especially with the wizard still rocking all their spells.
Hobgoblins are tough, but not overly deadly. The fights are a little swingy, but if the wizard was willing to expend a spell things would go much smoother (but then I'd need to know what more than cantrips do).
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