5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[Ovinomancer]

So you are ASSUMING that it makes all those noises without he rules saying so. Didn’t you just argue not to assume things? That if it isn’t stated in the rules it simply doesn’t exist?

No. No.

Here's the first things I said to you on this topic:

Why do you assume iron golems can be as still as a statue at will? This is a pre-narration. If you insist in this don't roll.

As you can see, I didn't say don't make the assumption, I said if you do make it, don't roll. This is because the basic play procedure is only roll if it's an uncertain outcome. If you're going to assume a case where it's not uncertain (the golem is immobile, silent and invisible) then you should not roll. If you do roll, don't assume the golem is immobile and silent -- instead narrate the result of the roll.

I can't really see how to say this any more simply.

As far as the hide check, this is what the only logical conclusion is following you, the golem will always be discovered. It is taking hide checks over and over as it awaits its trigger, so it would use a passive stealth check, with a result of 9. There is no groups that would have all passive PC checks under 9, so someone will always hear the noise your assumptions says it does.

No, the logical conclusion is what I said above. If you decide the result of the golem hiding is uncertain and roll (and choose to use a passive roll, for some reason), then narrate the result of the roll. If the check is such that everyone in the party will notice, DO NOT describe the golem as perfectly still and silent -- the golem did something to be noticed, so narrate that something, whatever it is. Again, the problem here is the assumption golems are silent when immobile and then rolling as if the outcome is uncertain. Don't do this.

If you decide to take an active stealth check it rolls a die, but only after the PC enter the room, as you would have to roll initiative before you start taking actions. So it would have to beat the PC initiative with a -1 to the check and then beat the PC perception checks to remain invisible.

Now you're off somewhere strange. There's absolutely no rule that you cannot make ability checks out of combat. If you play that you have to be in combat to make an ability check, do you roll for initiative prior to haggling with a merchant? You can hide out of combat. You can make a roll out of combat. This is a strange argument you're making.

Read the flavor text for iron golem, it discusses Mordenkainen encounter with a visible golem in “Mordenkainens Fantastic Adventure”, an old module. Not a single PC of that legendary group passed their perception checks to detect a visible iron golem in full view of the group. All of them where surprised when it animated and attacked, go read the adventure.

The flavor text for a golem says nothing about what kinds of noise it may make of if it is silent when standing still. What a 1984 module says about iron golems in the context of a railroaded encounter doesn't really seem to have any bearing on how you do it in 5e, does it? It might explain some of your arguments, though.

 

[smbakeresq]

No. No.

Here's the first things I said to you on this topic:


As you can see, I didn't say don't make the assumption, I said if you do make it, don't roll. This is because the basic play procedure is only roll if it's an uncertain outcome. If you're going to assume a case where it's not uncertain (the golem is immobile, silent and invisible) then you should not roll. If you do roll, don't assume the golem is immobile and silent -- instead narrate the result of the roll.

I can't really see how to say this any more simply.


No, the logical conclusion is what I said above. If you decide the result of the golem hiding is uncertain and roll (and choose to use a passive roll, for some reason), then narrate the result of the roll. If the check is such that everyone in the party will notice, DO NOT describe the golem as perfectly still and silent -- the golem did something to be noticed, so narrate that something, whatever it is. Again, the problem here is the assumption golems are silent when immobile and then rolling as if the outcome is uncertain. Don't do this.



Now you're off somewhere strange. There's absolutely no rule that you cannot make ability checks out of combat. If you play that you have to be in combat to make an ability check, do you roll for initiative prior to haggling with a merchant? You can hide out of combat. You can make a roll out of combat. This is a strange argument you're making.

The flavor text for a golem says nothing about what kinds of noise it may make of if it is silent when standing still. What a 1984 module says about iron golems in the context of a railroaded encounter doesn't really seem to have any bearing on how you do it in 5e, does it? It might explain some of your arguments, though.

They very fact that you think it’s a railroaded encounter says it all. Bye.

 

[Maxperson]

As you can see, I didn't say don't make the assumption, I said if you do make it, don't roll. This is because the basic play procedure is only roll if it's an uncertain outcome. If you're going to assume a case where it's not uncertain (the golem is immobile, silent and invisible) then you should not roll. If you do roll, don't assume the golem is immobile and silent -- instead narrate the result of the roll.

They aren't mutually exclusive positions, though. I can have a silent, invisible golem that can still be potentially perceived. The party may kick up a lot of dust in the room and notice it flowing oddly in the area of the invisible golem.

Now you're off somewhere strange. There's absolutely no rule that you cannot make ability checks out of combat. If you play that you have to be in combat to make an ability check, do you roll for initiative prior to haggling with a merchant? You can hide out of combat. You can make a roll out of combat. This is a strange argument you're making.

Yeah. Actions in combat are not the only actions you can take. Page 6 of the PHB describes opening a door, searching a chest, examining a symbol and watching for monsters as actions PCs can take, so clearly the game counts declarations outside of combat as actions.

 

[Satyrn]

I'm not saying it has muscles, but how do you think it resists the pull of gravity?

Antigravity Gnomes

 

[Ovinomancer]

They very fact that you think it’s a railroaded encounter says it all. Bye.

What, that a bunch of NPC's have a scripted encounter? What choice exists there?

 

[Ovinomancer]

They aren't mutually exclusive positions, though. I can have a silent, invisible golem that can still be potentially perceived. The party may kick up a lot of dust in the room and notice it flowing oddly in the area of the invisible golem.

Sigh. Sure, if you generate uncertainty via another vector, you generate uncertainty via another vector. Dis you think I'd disagree with you, here?

 

[Hriston]

An iron golem probably weighs a couple of tons. That's one heck of a breeze.

Even skyscrapers sway in the wind. I don’t think iron golems are designed to be aerodynamic.

If all iron golems are made with attached wind chimes in your world, that's fine. I just think it's a judgement call on the DM's part and there is no right or wrong.

Agreed about the judgement call. My point is if you do consult the mechanics there’s always a way to incorporate the result into the fiction.

Tell you what, next time we'll make it an invisible gargoyle since, while I don't think it matters one iota, they have false appearance to look like statues.

How would you be able to tell they look like statues if they’re invisible?

 

[Hriston]

Well, what says it has joints? They are wrought and smelted, so it could be a single piece of metal that bends magically. Or, it could be like my son's walking and roaring dinosaur and dragon, that just sit there silently without a single creak or groan until he pushes that horrid button and makes the rest of the house cringe.

Right, so what force bends the metal or pushes the button? And does that force have the power to infallibly follow instructions, or is it limited by the monster’s abilities?

 

[Hriston]

It would take a hurricane to cause an iron golem to sway, and those whistling sounds could just as easily be cracks in the walls and timber. In fact, if there's a strong enough wind to cause whistling sounds, they are almost certainly going to be coming from all over and not just the one spot where the golem is at for just that reason.

That’s an assumption, not allowed by some as it isn’t into the rules. However assuming it’s true, how would you distinguish the sounds made by the wind through the golem as opposed to the wind passing through everything else in the room?

Wind passing through other objects isn’t causing sound to emanate from a spot that looks to the PCs to be empty space. Certainly, strange noises coming from mid-air would warrant further investigation by the PCs.

Even if it was visible, to me the wind passing through the golem does scream “It’s a golem not an iron statue!!!” It would just be an iron statue with wind passing through it.

An invisible iron statue? I think that in itself would be cause for some alarm, would it not?

Passive perception is not an always on radar and sonar field that constantly provides a tactical read out of all dangers in the room. If it did rugs of smothering, animated armor, flying swords, etc would never have been invented(in fantasy world) or be in the monster manual as passive perception checks would always root them out.

I agree that passive Perception isn’t always on. You have to be alert for danger for it to work. I’m not sure what you mean by a “tactical read out”, but I don’t think it’s necessary to detect hidden threats. All that is required is that one notice the thing. Animated objects with False Appearance get to hide in plain sight, but you can still notice them if you’re alert.

 

[Hriston]

The earth spirit inside of it, as stated in the description of golems.

Where in the description does it say the earth spirit is able to hold the golem’s body still infallibly and keep it perfectly silent? I think that may be something you’ve added to the description.