5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[cmad1977]

Man. I like this thread. Really makes it clear who on these boards a person should ignore if they’re looking for advice.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, so what force bends the metal or pushes the button? And does that force have the power to infallibly follow instructions, or is it limited by the monster’s abilities?

That's up to the DM I suppose. Rulings over rules and all that.

Wind passing through other objects isn’t causing sound to emanate from a spot that looks to the PCs to be empty space. Certainly, strange noises coming from mid-air would warrant further investigation by the PCs.

So first, if you have a hurricane force wind going through a room, it's so full of cracks and the wind is so loud that there is somewhere next to zero chance that they will be able to differentiate the sound from the empty squares next to the whistling wall. But hey, I'd probably give them a DC 30 roll to see if they can pull those particular sounds out of the cacophony. Second, to even get to that roll you have to have the unlikely invisible golem in a room with tons of cracks during a hurricane. I don't think it's going to come up all that often.

 

[Hriston]

That's up to the DM I suppose. Rulings over rules and all that.



So first, if you have a hurricane force wind going through a room, it's so full of cracks and the wind is so loud that there is somewhere next to zero chance that they will be able to differentiate the sound from the empty squares next to the whistling wall. But hey, I'd probably give them a DC 30 roll to see if they can pull those particular sounds out of the cacophony. Second, to even get to that roll you have to have the unlikely invisible golem in a room with tons of cracks during a hurricane. I don't think it's going to come up all that often.

The invisible golem isn’t something I suggested. That was someone up thread that did that. I merely suggested that if a reason for such a golem being detected is needed to explain a result of the mechanics having been consulted to determine that fact, that adventures often take place in locations that tend to be drafty is something worth considering. The gale-force winds and crumbling architecture you’ve dreamed up in response to that is entirely on you.

 

[Oofta]

Even skyscrapers sway in the wind. I don’t think iron golems are designed to be aerodynamic.



Agreed about the judgement call. My point is if you do consult the mechanics there’s always a way to incorporate the result into the fiction.



How would you be able to tell they look like statues if they’re invisible?

Good grief.

First, to be considered a skyscraper, a building needs to be a thousand feet tall. Rather doubt there's any golems out there that tall. Yes, multi-story buildings sometimes make noise. Like the building the golem is in. If a ten foot tall statue (our closest analog to an iron golem IMHO) is swaying in the wind, it's a hurricane of epic proportions.

Second, if you want the golem to be detectable feel free. No one's stopping you, certainly not me. I think "predator" movie invisibility where there's visual distortion would be more logical if I wanted to have always detectable. But do what makes sense to you. Personally in my world I'd have cobwebs or dust if I wanted to give them a chance to detect it. Which I haven't because this has never come up and probably never will.

Third? Huh? If you had an invisible statue, I assume you could not detect it without bumping into it (unless there's other environmental factors).

Do you have anything new to add? Obviously I can implement narrative to justify anything I want. But I don't do narrative to justify rulings that to me make no sense in the context of my world.

 

[Maxperson]

The invisible golem isn’t something I suggested. That was someone up thread that did that. I merely suggested that if a reason for such a golem being detected is needed to explain a result of the mechanics having been consulted to determine that fact, that adventures often take place in locations that tend to be drafty is something worth considering. The gale-force winds and crumbling architecture you’ve dreamed up in response to that is entirely on you.

A draft isn't nearly strong enough to make noise. To make noise inside of a room, you need significantly more going on, so I added what was necessary to create the noise you threw in.

 

[Hriston]

Good grief.

First, to be considered a skyscraper, a building needs to be a thousand feet tall. Rather doubt there's any golems out there that tall. Yes, multi-story buildings sometimes make noise. Like the building the golem is in. If a ten foot tall statue (our closest analog to an iron golem IMHO) is swaying in the wind, it's a hurricane of epic proportions.

I disagree that’s the closest analog. The iron golem I’m imagining isn’t a single piece of cast metal or anchored firmly to the ground the way a statue might be. It’s made of smaller plates or pieces of metal joined together in such a way as to allow movement, with its center of gravity in its torso, about where a person’s would be. Pressure from sudden gusts of air on the body of the creature would have to be resisted by counterbalancing movements to keep it from toppling over.

Second, if you want the golem to be detectable feel free. No one's stopping you, certainly not me. I think "predator" movie invisibility where there's visual distortion would be more logical if I wanted to have always detectable. But do what makes sense to you. Personally in my world I'd have cobwebs or dust if I wanted to give them a chance to detect it. Which I haven't because this has never come up and probably never will.

The way I run stealth, hidden creatures are nearly always detected by sound because they need to avail themselves of some circumstance that blocks vision to them in order to hide in the first place, so I have no problem with invisibility that actually makes you invisible.

Third? Huh? If you had an invisible statue, I assume you could not detect it without bumping into it (unless there's other environmental factors).

You seem confused. The False Appearance trait doesn’t actually turn the gargoyles into statues. It just makes them look like statues. If they’re invisible, it doesn’t matter what they look like because they can’t be seen.

Do you have anything new to add? Obviously I can implement narrative to justify anything I want. But I don't do narrative to justify rulings that to me make no sense in the context of my world.

If the idea that a hidden invisible creature might be noticed through sound makes no sense to you, then don’t make a ruling that it might be noticed that way. That’s fine with me. Personally, I rule out that hidden creatures have a chance of being noticed if they’re more than around 35 feet away. In this thread, I’ve only said that it does make sense to me that an invisible golem might be noticed by sound while hiding, and that because of that I would make a DEX check for the golem against the passive Perception scores of anyone who comes close enough and is alert to danger. By saying that, I’m not telling you how to run your game. I’ve suggested setting a higher DC than what you could roll for the golem, but I think a better suggestion that’s more in line with how you seem to rule this situation is to not call for a check and to auto-surprise the PCs with the golem’s first attack. Do I have that right?

 

[Maxperson]

I disagree that’s the closest analog. The iron golem I’m imagining isn’t a single piece of cast metal or anchored firmly to the ground the way a statue might be. It’s made of smaller plates or pieces of metal joined together in such a way as to allow movement, with its center of gravity in its torso, about where a person’s would be. Pressure from sudden gusts of air on the body of the creature would have to be resisted by counterbalancing movements to keep it from toppling over.

Not unless it had the force of a hurricane. A golem has full control over its movements, does not tire....ever, and has weighs thousands of pounds. Go pile up twenty 100 pound boulders and see if a gust of wind moves them. It won't, unless it is moving 70+ miles an hour, and even then it still probably won't budge one.

 

[Oofta]

I disagree that’s the closest analog. The iron golem I’m imagining isn’t a single piece of cast metal or anchored firmly to the ground the way a statue might be. It’s made of smaller plates or pieces of metal joined together in such a way as to allow movement, with its center of gravity in its torso, about where a person’s would be. Pressure from sudden gusts of air on the body of the creature would have to be resisted by counterbalancing movements to keep it from toppling over.



The way I run stealth, hidden creatures are nearly always detected by sound because they need to avail themselves of some circumstance that blocks vision to them in order to hide in the first place, so I have no problem with invisibility that actually makes you invisible.



You seem confused. The False Appearance trait doesn’t actually turn the gargoyles into statues. It just makes them look like statues. If they’re invisible, it doesn’t matter what they look like because they can’t be seen.



If the idea that a hidden invisible creature might be noticed through sound makes no sense to you, then don’t make a ruling that it might be noticed that way. That’s fine with me. Personally, I rule out that hidden creatures have a chance of being noticed if they’re more than around 35 feet away. In this thread, I’ve only said that it does make sense to me that an invisible golem might be noticed by sound while hiding, and that because of that I would make a DEX check for the golem against the passive Perception scores of anyone who comes close enough and is alert to danger. By saying that, I’m not telling you how to run your game. I’ve suggested setting a higher DC than what you could roll for the golem, but I think a better suggestion that’s more in line with how you seem to rule this situation is to not call for a check and to auto-surprise the PCs with the golem’s first attack. Do I have that right?

For some reason you think an iron Golem is a giant wind chime that fidgets like a hyperactive 2-year old on a sugar high. That gargoyles can be completely perfectly still enough to be indistinguishable from statues but can't sit still the moment they are invisible.

Do what you want. If you want to have a narrative to justify noticing an invisible creature I just think it should make sense. I was just trying to explain why I don't think yours make any sense to me while offering alternatives.

Have a good one.

 

[Hriston]

A draft isn't nearly strong enough to make noise. To make noise inside of a room, you need significantly more going on, so I added what was necessary to create the noise you threw in.

Genre fiction is rife with drafty old castles full of eerie noises. I haven't suggested anyone invent a hurricane to explain a failed DEX check. The simplest explanation is that the golem moved slightly, and there are any number of explanations for that. Just pick one.

 

[Hriston]

Not unless it had the force of a hurricane. A golem has full control over its movements, does not tire....ever, and has weighs thousands of pounds. Go pile up twenty 100 pound boulders and see if a gust of wind moves them. It won't, unless it is moving 70+ miles an hour, and even then it still probably won't budge one.

I haven't looked at the fluff text you seem to be referencing, but the golem's 9 DEX very much calls into question the idea that it has full control of its movements. Perhaps a citation would be helpful?

Also, I think piling up twenty boulders in the shape of a golem and keeping them standing on their own would be a difficult enough task without any wind. There's a reason you don't see a lot of free standing statues around that aren't firmly attached at the base to some kind of anchoring mechanism. It just wouldn't be safe!