5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[Maxperson]

This looks more like an investigation check than a perception one. As you said "I wouldn't make that a part of stealth, though if they make an appropriate DC perception check, I'd point out the discoloration and let the PCs investigate from there if they wish." All i'm saying is may be you wouldn't, but it could if a DM want, use Stealth rules just as they are.

It's not investigation. Noticing an oddity is pure perception. What happens afterwards to figure out the oddity would be investigation, though I seriously doubt a roll would be required to figure out that an invisible golem is in the corner. Just about anything they do will reveal that a large, invisible object is there.

 

[Maxperson]

The rules aren't deficient here. If you decide your golems are absolutely still and silent, don't roll. If you roll, don't decide the golem is perfectly still and silent before you see the result. The deficiency here is deciding your golem is silent, then rolling, and then having to reconcile a failed roll against your undectable golem decision.

Dude. You're having a conversation that nobody else is in. Why don't you join our conversation where we aren't making a decision and then inexplicably rolling.

 

[Maxperson]

Plenty of reasonable explanations for the golem getting noticed have been suggested. And yes, I was positing a strong wind. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that a strong wind occurs.

Inside a building? While it's not beyond the realm of possibility for a strong wind to occur inside, it's not going to happen without the outside raging with winds of hurricane caliber. A strong wind outside will produce a light draft inside, and then only if the building is practically falling apart. To get howling and whistling inside takes a lot of effort and the amount of noise from the intense winds would preclude hearing specific whistling from one corner of the room without an intensely high roll. Probably DC 30ish.

I grew up in Michigan where we used to get winds like that. There's nothing like fighting to walk forward knowing that if or when you get turned a hair, the wind will spin you around and push you back the way you came for 5-20 feet before you could stop yourself and get started in the right direction again. Well, I used to play in a barn that was falling apart, and even when the winds were strong, I never heard all the noises you describe. It got drafty, even somewhat windy inside at times, but I was never there during the hurricane force winds that might have produced such sounds.

No, but I generally do require them to make a DEX (Stealth) check, contested by the WIS (Perception) check of anyone keeping watch, in order to stay hidden. That isn't incompetence. It's the baseline. There's nothing in the golem entry that suggests they're exempt from that.

If you aren't forcing your low dex PCs to have uncontrolled movements, why are you forcing golems to?

You're going to have to provide more detail about how you're getting the boulders to settle in to the shape of a golem for this to be useful. Otherwise, there's just a pile of rocks, which tells us nothing about how wind can affect a golem.

If the wind can't move a roundish 100 pound rock, it's not going to budge a multi-thousand pound statue.

 

[billd91]

The whole point of the "invisible iron golem" discussion is that it is not a living creature. When not commanded to do something it sits there unmoving like a statue. Much like a gargoyle which apparently you seem to believe cannot sit still if invisible. With no movement dexterity is irrelevant.

But does it though? Or is that your assumption? Who's to say it wouldn't turn its head to follow motion within view as it bides its time, waiting to ambush approaching intruders?

There are a LOT of assumptions being tossed around.

 

[billd91]

If you aren't forcing your low dex PCs to have uncontrolled movements, why are you forcing golems to?

I think it's less about uncontrolled movement and more about imperfectly controlled movement/stability, honestly.

 

[Maxperson]

I think it's less about uncontrolled movement and more about imperfectly controlled movement/stability, honestly.

Uncontrolled or imperfectly controlled, low dex PCs have neither issue. If a golem can't stand still despite having now muscles to tire or stiffen up, then PCs should be knocking cups over and dropping forks as they try to drink and eat. Fair is fair.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Uncontrolled or imperfectly controlled, low dex PCs have neither issue. If a golem can't stand still despite having now muscles to tire or stiffen up, then PCs should be knocking cups over and dropping forks as they try to drink and eat. Fair is fair.

And if the PCs fail stealth checks, you're more than welcome to narrate such outcomes.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Dude. You're having a conversation that nobody else is in. Why don't you join our conversation where we aren't making a decision and then inexplicably rolling.

Still talking about invisible golems? Check.

Still saying the stealth system is broken in relation to invisible golems? Check.

Ovinomancer on topic? Yup.

 

[Oofta]

But does it though? Or is that your assumption? Who's to say it wouldn't turn its head to follow motion within view as it bides its time, waiting to ambush approaching intruders?

There are a LOT of assumptions being tossed around.

Yes. Like the assumption that all iron golems creak like rusty door hinges with even the tiniest of movements and that there is nothing else in the environment that could make a similar noise. Or that they move when not commanded to do so.

In order to detect a creature it has to be perceived somehow. It's up to the DM to decide if there is any way of perceiving the creature. That's it. End of story.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yes. Like the assumption that all iron golems creak like rusty door hinges with even the tiniest of movements and that there is nothing else in the environment that could make a similar noise. Or that they move when not commanded to do so.

In order to detect a creature it has to be perceived somehow. It's up to the DM to decide if there is any way of perceiving the creature. That's it. End of story.

The only assumption there is that it is possible, not guaranteed. On a failed stealth check, that might be what happened to cause the failure. Or something else could happen. The point wasn't that this is what happens, but that if you assume all of those things are impossible and roll anyway, the problem is on your end.