D&D 5E 5e/Next Cosmology

[Keldryn]

I don't have any particular love for the "Great Wheel" cosmology. I started D&D with BECMI, and it had its own cosmology: the prime material plane, the four elemental planes, the ethereal plane, the astral plane, an infinite number of outer planes, the dimension of nightmares... So it's definitely not a necessary part of D&D, nor is it something that has always been part of D&D.

I first encountered the "Great Wheel" in Best of Dragon Vol. 1, I think, which is pretty similar to how it appears in the AD&D Player's Handbook.

The positive and negative energy planes never really made a lot of sense to me, and the various para- and quasi-elemental planes that were added later in 1e strike me as rather silly. The alignment-based outer planes feel very rigid and all of the real-world pantheons living side-by-side doesn't appeal to me.

I very much prefer the idea of each campaign setting having its own cosmology. Eberron has a cool setup that fits the world much better than would the Great Wheel. Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous presents a cosmology that is very reminiscent of the Great Wheel, but modified and stripped-down to fit the religions contained in the book.

While I'm not a big fan of the system, I really like 4e's "World Axis" cosmology. I think it is better suited for providing interesting adventuring locations than does the Great Wheel. It also feels more inspired by real-world myths and less by gaming constructs.

 

[pemerton]

Here's the thing though. Like its use or not, the thing is, you remember it. It's one of the quirks that makes Sigil a memorable location, and it's still here with us more than a decade, nearing two decades after it came out.

I happen to adore Sigilian cant

I also remember Lara Bingle saying "Where the bloody hell are you?", but that doesn't make it a good thing.

I know that cant trades on the fact that (as best I can tell) this English slang is not part of American English vernacular (or Canadian English?). But, like someone said upthread, it would be strange for American players (wouldn't it?) to have an RPG produce set in a down-and-out urban area where everyone speaks like they're from the Bronx.

That's how I feel about cant.

 

[Steely_Dan]

Here's the thing though. Like its use or not, the thing is, you remember it. It's one of the quirks that makes Sigil a memorable location, and it's still here with us more than a decade, nearing two decades after it came out.

I happen to adore Sigilian cant, though in-game I only use it for characters from Sigil itself rather than anyone else out on the planes except for a bit for those from the Gatetowns linked to the City of Doors.

As for Sigil itself, thankfully as I recall it, Michelle Carter really pushed hard for its inclusion in the 4e MotP, otherwise we might not have gotten it in 4e. Likewise, a number of writers went out of their way to bring as many bits of the Great Wheel cosmology in terms of NPCs and locations alike into the 4e cosmology. The concepts varied in how they translated from the Wheel to the very different at times 4e cosmology, but they were well liked originally and it wasn't surprising to see those things come back in one form or another over time even if they were initially absent.

Tentatively it looks like we'll be seeing much more of a return of those classic PS / Great Wheel elements, and hopefully in their original cosmological context. This is a very -very- good sign in my opinion.

I'm on the same page as you, Shemeska, as usual.

Oh, and I want Anthraxus back.

 

[jrowland]

I also remember Lara Bingle saying "Where the bloody hell are you?", but that doesn't make it a good thing.

I know that cant trades on the fact that (as best I can tell) this English slang is not part of American English vernacular (or Canadian English?). But, like someone said upthread, it would be strange for American players (wouldn't it?) to have an RPG produce set in a down-and-out urban area where everyone speaks like they're from the Bronx.

That's how I feel about cant.

I grew up in Southern California...LARGE hispanic population. One day, my gaming friends and I made fun of the dwarf accent = scottish accent that seems prevelant among gamers. One thing led to another and before you know it we were doing:
Orcs with Mexican accents, mexican slang, etc.
Elves with "queens english"
Goblins with Filipino accents (spanish + tagalog)
Halflings with Ving Rhames accents (with lots of Shaft-esque entendre)
Dwarves remained scottish/english/australian (we're bad at accents)
Draconic was chinese (I can't speak a lick of it, but our friend was fluent and would put on the accent thick for his "translations"...hilarious)

In any event, it started out as just a gag, but it stuck. As we got older we realized it was a simpler shorrthand. Sure, nobody speaks arabic in the forgotten realms, but if a Sha'ir from Zakhara speaks arabic, does it really break versimilitude?

With regard to the Sigil Cant...it evokes images of the seedy side of victorian London, of a city at the center of the world...much like Sigil. Using real world dialect is easier than using Klingon.

 

[Steely_Dan]

I grew up in Southern California...LARGE hispanic population. One day, my gaming friends and I made fun of the dwarf accent = scottish accent that seems prevelant among gamers. One thing led to another and before you know it we were doing:
Orcs with Mexican accents, mexican slang, etc.
Elves with "queens english"
Goblins with Filipino accents (spanish + tagalog)
Halflings with Ving Rhames accents (with lots of Shaft-esque entendre)
Dwarves remained scottish/english/australian (we're bad at accents)
Draconic was chinese (I can't speak a lick of it, but our friend was fluent and would put on the accent thick for his "translations"...hilarious)

Ha, same here (LA), but for Elves it was French!

 

[Stormonu]

I grew up in Southern California...LARGE hispanic population. One day, my gaming friends and I made fun of the dwarf accent = scottish accent that seems prevelant among gamers. One thing led to another and before you know it we were doing:
Orcs with Mexican accents, mexican slang, etc.
Elves with "queens english"
Goblins with Filipino accents (spanish + tagalog)
Halflings with Ving Rhames accents (with lots of Shaft-esque entendre)
Dwarves remained scottish/english/australian (we're bad at accents)
Draconic was chinese (I can't speak a lick of it, but our friend was fluent and would put on the accent thick for his "translations"...hilarious)

Great, now I'm imagining a big, green orc in a sombero and cigar belting out "Badges?!? We don't need no stinkin' badges!"

And Steely_Dan, poncy elves telling everyone, "go away or I will taunt you a second time."

 

[Steely_Dan]

And Steely_Dan, poncy elves telling everyone, "go away or I will taunt you a second time."

Of course, it had to be Cleese's outrageous accent.

Oh, I wanted to mention to you about the Ethereal Plane, I like the take that it touches every plane, not an Astral-like plane that houses the Inner Planes.

 

[Stormonu]

Sitting back from this and looking considering, I actually believe I DON'T want the Great Wheel in the core. But before you go wild, here me out.

I do think that the core rules should touch on the idea of other planes. At a basic level, some transitive plane, one or more elemental planes and some outer plane - paradise/afterlife, purgatory/hell. Just a bare-bones framework to get the idea across.

One of the problems of adopting the Greta Wheel is that it is somewhat limiting - it tells you what planes does and does not exist. For example, I can't decide I only want to go with having only the 7 heavens and the 9 hells and drop the likes of asgard and hades - if the Great Wheel is default, I'm possibly stuck with a plane I don't want or need. I think a toolbox would be better, and then specific campaign world cosmologies can be presented as options. (As a real example, I've always bemoaned that with the Great Wheel, there isn't a true and seperate Plane of Dreams/Nightmares or Plane of Faerie).

A 5E Planescape setting then could be released that utilizes the Great Wheel, where the planes can be fleshed out in much more detail.

 

[Steely_Dan]

As a real example, I've always bemoaned that with the Great Wheel, there isn't a true and seperate Plane of Dreams/Nightmares or Plane of Faerie.

These is in my Planescape campaign, they even mention The Plane of Faerie in the 3rd Ed Manual of the Planes, and the Realm of Dreams goes back to 2nd Ed, there was a great Dragon article on Iram, The City of Lofty Pillars in The Realm of Dreams (think Al-Qadim meets HP Lovecraft's Dreamlands).

Oh, and for faerie, you also have the Seelie Court demi-plane that wonders through the Upper Planes.

 

[Stormonu]

These is in my Planescape campaign, they even mention The Plane of Faerie in the 3rd Ed Manual of the Planes, and the Realm of Dreams goes back to 2nd Ed, there was a great Dragon article on Iram, The City of Lofty Pillars in The Realm of Dreams (think Al-Qadim meets HP Lovecraft's Dreamlands).

Oh, and for faerie, you also have the Seelie Court demi-plane that wonders through the Upper Planes.

That's the thing, I don't want a demiplane - that was one of 4E's cosmology changes with the Feywild that I liked (and the Shadowfell over Plane of Shadows for that matter, but I'll keep the elemental planes over the elemental chaos)

The two you mentioned - were they officially made into the Great Wheel, or in the case of the 3E MoP an option? I think I remember the Dragon article, but I don't remember a full-fledged dream plane being in the official Great Wheel (if I recall correctly, officially dreams are a subsection of the Ethereal).