D&D 5E 5E Wound/Vitality System

[Tony Vargas]

Another alternative: WP are equal to VP, or at least substantially higher than just Constitution. Now, when a crit bypasses VP and goes straight to WP, it's not quite the instant-death threat, but still represents damage to your "meat."

But it does take you back to the 'problem' of high hps (WPs in that case) making you improbably resistant to damage, daggers (for instance) not being deadly weapons, etc...
...simply not bypassing VP, ever, keeps the mechanical function/playability of hp, while allowing the real-wound-realism of WPs.

 

[Syntallah]

I have used a Wound / Vitality Point system in my 5E Star Wars game for a year now, wherein your chargen Wound Points = (Hit Die + Con mod)*2, and your level-based Vitality = (Hit Die + Con mod, rolled or average as normal). This system does mean you have a greater Health Pool (i.e. typically 18 - 24 extra 'hit points'), but the damages are a bit higher (e.g. a blaster rifle inflicts 3d8 damage).

On a critical hit, a target may attempt an Armor check to mitigate the hit down to a standard hit. This is a d20 + the armor bonus of the gear, with a DC = 14 + attacker's prof bonus. A successful critical hit deals 1/2 damage to Wounds, and 1/2 damage to Vitality. Death occurs at negative Health Pool. Note: I keep track of negative health, as it accumulates. Each failed Death save inflicts Setback Damage [DMG, pg 249], three successes stabilizes the victim.

 

[Charlaquin]

But it does take you back to the 'problem' of high hps (WPs in that case) making you improbably resistant to damage, daggers (for instance) not being deadly weapons, etc...
...simply not bypassing VP, ever, keeps the mechanical function/playability of hp, while allowing the real-wound-realism of WPs.

If we don’t bypass VP, and if we want to keep WP low enough that one or two hits with just about any weapon are seriously life-threatening... why have two pools of points that both work like HP? Just make the call that HP represent vitality, luck, fighting spirit, etc., and allow PCs to take a low, fixed number of hits once it runs out. Kind of like how you get one automatic Death Saving Throw failure for taking any amount of damage while unstable (or two if it’s a critical hit, which melee attacks always are against incapacitated targets). In fact, why not just call Death Saving Throw Failures Wounds?
Instead of falling unconscious when you hit 0 HP, you start taking Wounds when you get hit. After one Wound, you have to start making Death Saving Throws, and each failed Death Saving Throw gives you an additional Wound. At two Wounds, you’re unconscious. At 5 Wounds you die. Heck, if you want Meat Damage to have lasting consequences, don’t have Wounds go away when you gain HP or stabilize. You could even say each Wound you take increases your Exhaustion level by 1.

 

[droid6689]

Why not just make it a modification of the insant death rules? You have WP equal to you VP. Suprise weapon damage and crit weapon damage go to both VP and WP and you can't have more VP than your WP. If you go to zero WP it is instant death. You still go unconcious when you lose all VP, all extra damage after 0 VP goes to WP, and death saving throw failures are a HD roll against your WP

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[RangerWickett]

I played in a 5e Zombie Apocalypse, wherein a Game of Thrones style Wall that kept back the undead fell, and most of civilization collapsed. We used a unique system to represent lasting wounds.

1. You didn't heal HP overnight, but you could still use Hit Dice, which did replenish overnight. Basically, a day or two of rest and your HP would be full.

2. Whenever you're at 0 HP, you aren't unconscious. However, you function as if you have two virtual levels of exhaustion.

3. Each time you drop to 0 HP or take damage while at 0 HP, you make a Con save (DC 10). If you fail, you gain a level of real exhaustion. These stack with the two virtual levels. If you reach 4 real levels and 2 virtual levels, you're unconscious and you must make a save each round to avoid gaining a 5th level, and then finally a 6th and fatal level.

4. Magical healing only let you regain HP, not recover exhaustion. Each week you rested, you recovered a level of exhaustion.

The effect in play was demonstrated in our first encounter, where my 2nd level dwarf fighter was grabbed, tripped, and gnawed on 5 zombies. I tried to fight them off, but I quickly was reduced to 0 HP, which earned me 1 real exhaustion level and 2 virtual. The cleric healed me, so the virtual levels went away, and I tried to keep fighting while the other PCs split their attention between the zombies trying to bite through my heavy armor and the ones that were trying to swarm them.

I ended up going on total defense, and my high Con let me succeed a lot of Con saves, so I survived three rounds being gnawed on by zombies before I finally reached 4 levels of exhaustion which knocked me out. The rest of the party narrowly managed to kill the zombies, then grabbed my limp body and ran onward. When we reached safety and they were able to make a Heal check to let me spend a hit die to heal, I awoke with, like, 6 hit points and 4 levels of exhaustion that forced the party to hide in ruins for an entire month to give me time to regain my strength.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

The question is how much realism do you want? Realistically Pee Wee Herman and Conan the Barbarian are equally dead if they happen to take a knife to the base of the skull cutting their spine, or up under the rib cage eviscerating the heart, or half a dozen other ways one can be instantly killed with even a small knife.

So lets say you make it that crits and only crits go straight to wounds. Okay easy enough to manage, but no one wants their 6th level paladin to die to the bad luck swing of a random orc with a great axe. So you balance it by saying that mooks cannot vitality crit they just do the old fashioned double damage to wounds crit, while bosses can vitality crit.

But what makes a mook? Is a monster always a mook or a boss? Or do you make it level dependent? An ogre is a boss foe to 1st, 2nd, and possibly 3rd level characters and then a mook to anyone 4th level or higher?

What about PCs? Are they always bosses since they are heroes? Does this mean a 1st level fighter rolling a super lucky crit can take out a Mind Flayer in one shot?

You add realism, which I REALLY REALLY like but you add lots of complexity.

Also, what about spells? If any roll to hit crit from a player goes straight to vitality then how OP did you make Eldritch Blast? Single target spells suddenly become insanely powerful if you let them vitality crit or you make spellcasters extremely weak vs weapon wielders if you dont let them vitality crit. Maybe as a balance to make single target vitality crit but in a specific way. When a spell crits it does 1 point of vitality damage per die rolled for damage with the rest going to wounds.

 

[Bawylie]

I think if I’m going to do something like this, I want to build on what already exists and alter as little as possible.

So instead of adding Wound Points, I’m going to use Hit Dice because they’re already there.

Now let’s say critical hits double damage (as normal) but also deplete a hit die.

Now a character with zero HP is dying. A character with zero hit dice and zero HP is dead.

For a buffer, maybe we increase the number of Hit dice a character gets by a few. Their proficiency modifier perhaps.

Ok that’s characters. It’s deadlier without succumbing to one-shot fever. Most everything works normally, but there’s a small change to hit dice.

How about NPC creatures? They have hit dice, I think, listed in their MM entries. I just checked. They do have hit dice. So I suppose the rule works just as well for NPCs. Only I wouldn’t give them any extra padding.

But let’s say we DO want lethal Critical Hits and lethal surprise attacks. Maybe to give us a more Assassin’s Creed style game where combat is more about engaging an unaware enemy than a straight up slug-fest. In that case, critical hits and attacks against defenseless targets don’t double damage - they roll normal weapon damage and deplete that many Hit Dice. If a creature loses more hit dice than it has currently, it dies.

A defenseless target is one that cannot defend itself (for instance, they’re asleep or otherwise incapacitated), or is totally unaware of the attack (this is like the old flat-footed rule - it’s a creature that doesn’t perceive any danger, isn’t defending itself, and has not rolled initiative). A surprised creature isn’t eligible because it is aware of danger and has rolled initiative, it is defending itself, but it’s just slow to act.

And if I wanted to be really picky about it, I’d rule that attacks against defenseless targets had to be made with small, subtle weapons like daggers, that can be concealed (unlike swinging an axe, which anyone would be more likely to notice than not) if you wanted the damage to go straight to the hit dice.

Heck, certain potent poisons could just deal hit dice damage on a failed save.

Any thoughts on this?


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[Lanefan]

Before getting into some minutae, I'll say first that you might be on to something here.

But let’s say we DO want lethal Critical Hits and lethal surprise attacks. Maybe to give us a more Assassin’s Creed style game where combat is more about engaging an unaware enemy than a straight up slug-fest. In that case, critical hits and attacks against defenseless targets don’t double damage - they roll normal weapon damage and deplete that many Hit Dice. If a creature loses more hit dice than it has currently, it dies.

A defenseless target is one that cannot defend itself (for instance, they’re asleep or otherwise incapacitated), or is totally unaware of the attack (this is like the old flat-footed rule - it’s a creature that doesn’t perceive any danger, isn’t defending itself, and has not rolled initiative).

To me, those are two different types of 'defenseless'.

A successful attack (or perhaps successful by rolling 5 higher than what would normally be needed to hit) against someone asleep or otherwise immobile should, if intended to kill, just kill. Period. Or, one could say this is only true for classes trained in such things - Rogues, Monks perhaps, maybe some others with backgrounds that would suit.

A successful attack against someone who is mobile yet completely unaware should work as you suggest. Same for attacks by those untrained in sneak attacks, perhaps.

A surprised creature isn’t eligible because it is aware of danger and has rolled initiative, it is defending itself, but it’s just slow to act.

And if I wanted to be really picky about it, I’d rule that attacks against defenseless targets had to be made with small, subtle weapons like daggers, that can be concealed (unlike swinging an axe, which anyone would be more likely to notice than not) if you wanted the damage to go straight to the hit dice.

Against sleeping or immobilized types it shouldn't matter whether you're swinging a dagger or a greataxe.

Against mobile-but-unaware targets what you say makes perfect sense.

Heck, certain potent poisons could just deal hit dice damage on a failed save.

Good call.

Lan-"and this can also apply to editions beyond just 5e"-efan

 

[Bawylie]

Before getting into some minutae, I'll say first that you might be on to something here.To me, those are two different types of 'defenseless'.

A successful attack (or perhaps successful by rolling 5 higher than what would normally be needed to hit) against someone asleep or otherwise immobile should, if intended to kill, just kill. Period. Or, one could say this is only true for classes trained in such things - Rogues, Monks perhaps, maybe some others with backgrounds that would suit.

A successful attack against someone who is mobile yet completely unaware should work as you suggest. Same for attacks by those untrained in sneak attacks, perhaps.

Against sleeping or immobilized types it shouldn't matter whether you're swinging a dagger or a greataxe.

Against mobile-but-unaware targets what you say makes perfect sense.

Good call.

Lan-"and this can also apply to editions beyond just 5e"-efan

I concur. A creature you’ve check-mated is an auto-kill. No roll needed. No weapon-requirement should apply.


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[WayOfTheFourElements]

I concur. A creature you’ve check-mated is an auto-kill. No roll needed. No weapon-requirement should apply.


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I can see exceptions made for larger than human-sized foes, like dragons, who might require more than one swing with a great-axe to behead, however.