D&D 5E (2014) 5e XP Chart Progression Question

[KarinsDad]

Misread.

 

[Morrus]

Mike Mearls commented on this a while back: "Level 10 - 11 XP: It's by design. Data shows campaigns stop at 10, we're trying to speed up 10+ a bit so groups can reach 20 in a campaign"

 

[Desalus]

One thing: the XP earned isn't the same as the "ranking XP"...

the XP earned will usually be half the "ranking" XP... Because the XP earned are just the critters, while that for ranking them is multiplied by 2 for 3-8 of them... so you're off by (typically) a factor of two.

That's exactly right. Darrius_Adler, your chart assumes that in every encounter the party will be fighting against a single monster. If you increase the amount of monsters in the encounters, the encounter difficulty scales up by the 'Encounter XP Modifiers', but the XP earned does not get multiplied.

The first four levels would be close to the chart below for a medium encounter difficulty. Of course in a normal game the number of encounters is probably going to fall within the range of 'Single' and 'Horde' for each level.

[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]Level[/td]
[td]XP to Level[/td]
[td]Single[/td]
[td]Pair[/td]
[td]Group[/td]
[td]Gang[/td]
[td]Mob[/td]
[td]Horde[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1[/td]
[td]300[/td]
[td]6[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[td]18[/td]
[td]24[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2[/td]
[td]600[/td]
[td]6[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[td]18[/td]
[td]24[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3[/td]
[td]1800[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]18[/td]
[td]24[/td]
[td]30[/td]
[td]36[/td]
[td]48[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4[/td]
[td]3800[/td]
[td]15.2[/td]
[td]22.8[/td]
[td]30.4[/td]
[td]38[/td]
[td]45.6[/td]
[td]60.8[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

 

[Sadrik]

Hmm, I think something more hyperbolic would have been better though I think this is fine too. If the idea is to get through the high levels quickly because they are inherently unbalanced but everyone still wants to play through them that is what they have. what I generated below is basically something where you basically hit a wall around level 7. After that you have to play a lot of encounters to really make a difference.

I would be ok making the encounter XP more hyperbolic too. Basically the assumption that 10 encounters is enough to level up, shave off one zero from below and divide by 4 (the assumed number in the party). So a level 1 medium encounter would be worth 25xp and a level 20 encounter would be worth 6.5 million. Hmm, actually the math on it could increase to make more encounters between each level up. So levels 1-5 you divide by 40 (as above) and then it increases by 10 at each phase of play so at levels 5-10 you now have divide by 50 then at 11-16 divide by 60 and finally divide by 70 at level 17+. I can see increasing this divisor to make far more encounters as you go up in level.

The below chart shows a hyperbolic advancement with a progressively more encounters to level up. After having done the math below I see my analysis is flawed because it does not take into account the XP values of the monsters. I will have to think about that a little more. Mostly though This gets at the idea that higher level will generate way more XP. This is good in a sandbox game where you may want to have varying levels of PCs. One encounter may pop the new PC up multiple levels. And any new PCs will only ever be 1 level behind because you are doubling the XP needed for each additional level.

[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]Level[/td]
[td]XP needed to advance to the next level[/td]
[td]XP per medium encounter[/td]
[td]Number of encounters at Medium difficulty to advance[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]1,000[/td]
[td]25[/td]
[td]10[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]2,000[/td]
[td]50[/td]
[td]10[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]4,000[/td]
[td]100[/td]
[td]10[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]8,000[/td]
[td]200[/td]
[td]10[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]16,000[/td]
[td]320[/td]
[td]12.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]32,000[/td]
[td]640[/td]
[td]12.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]64,000[/td]
[td]1,280[/td]
[td]12.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]128,000[/td]
[td]2,560[/td]
[td]12.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]256,000[/td]
[td]5,120[/td]
[td]12.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]512,000[/td]
[td]10,240[/td]
[td]12.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]1,024,000[/td]
[td]17,067[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]2,048,000[/td]
[td]34,133[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]4,096,000[/td]
[td]68,267[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]8,192,000[/td]
[td]136,533[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]16,384,000[/td]
[td]237,067[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]32,768,000[/td]
[td]546,133[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]65,536,000[/td]
[td]936,229[/td]
[td]17.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]131,072,000[/td]
[td]1,872,457[/td]
[td]17.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]262,144,000[/td]
[td]3,744,914[/td]
[td]17.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]N/A[/td]
[td]N/A[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

 

[Darrius_Adler]

One thing: the XP earned isn't the same as the "ranking XP"...

the XP earned will usually be half the "ranking" XP... Because the XP earned are just the critters, while that for ranking them is multiplied by 2 for 3-8 of them... so you're off by (typically) a factor of two.

Ooook, had not considered that angle, I will have to take a look at that.

 

[Gobelure]

The trouble while trying to "fix" the XP rating is that there is no universal way of doing this. In 5E, there is no generic rule for XP progression, the encounter XP represent more or less the strength of the PC at a given level, but from this you can't infer how long they should spend in one level before going to the next. This can only be a design decision.

From what we have now, I think there are only 3 ways to award XP everyone may agree to :
- the "by the book" formula
- the "milestone" way: In this manner, don't compute XP, just award levels when it makes sense with you campaign. For myself, I adopted this long ago and it saves me a lot of unnecessary computations
- the "constant leveling", where there are always the same number of encounters between levels

All other level-up methods will lack general consensus. Some will want to have progressively more encounters to level up, but there are plenty of way of doing this, so I doubt people will reach an agreement.

Anyway, I computed for myself 2 XP charts. The first one is the constant leveling rate, set to 10 medium encounter per level. And the second is more subtle : it is a steady power increase chart, where the PC spend time to gain a level in proportion of the increase of their power.

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"][TR][TD]Level[/TD][TD]Total XP to reach level (official rules)[/TD][TD]Total XP to reach level (steady leveling)[/TD][TD]Total XP to reach level (steady power increase)[/TD][TD]Number of encounters corresponding to a steady power increase[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]2nd[/TD][TD]300[/TD][TD]500[/TD][TD]270[/TD][TD]5.4[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]3rd[/TD][TD]900[/TD][TD]1,500[/TD][TD]1,100[/TD][TD]8.3[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]4th[/TD][TD]2,700[/TD][TD]3,500[/TD][TD]1,800[/TD][TD]3.5[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]5th[/TD][TD]6,500[/TD][TD]6,000[/TD][TD]6,400[/TD][TD]18.4[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]6th[/TD][TD]14,000[/TD][TD]11,500[/TD][TD]10,700[/TD][TD]7.8[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]7th[/TD][TD]23,000[/TD][TD]18,000[/TD][TD]15,800[/TD][TD]7.3[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]8th[/TD][TD]34,000[/TD][TD]27,000[/TD][TD]15,800[/TD][TD]9.1[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]9th[/TD][TD]48,000[/TD][TD]37,500[/TD][TD]30,300[/TD][TD]6.5[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]10th[/TD][TD]64,000[/TD][TD]49,500[/TD][TD]40,000[/TD][TD]8.1[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]11th[/TD][TD]85,000[/TD][TD]63,500[/TD][TD]61,400[/TD][TD]15.3[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]12th[/TD][TD]100,000[/TD][TD]81,500[/TD][TD]81,500[/TD][TD]15.9[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]13th[/TD][TD]120,000[/TD][TD]104,000[/TD][TD]112,000[/TD][TD]9.8[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]14th[/TD][TD]140,000[/TD][TD]129,500[/TD][TD]137,000[/TD][TD]9.8[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]15th[/TD][TD]165,000[/TD][TD]158,000[/TD][TD]167,000[/TD][TD]10.5[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]16th[/TD][TD]195,000[/TD][TD]190,000[/TD][TD]205,000[/TD][TD]11.9[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]17th[/TD][TD]225,000[/TD][TD]226,000[/TD][TD]286,000[/TD][TD]22.5[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]18th[/TD][TD]265,000[/TD][TD]270,000[/TD][TD]327,000[/TD][TD]9.3[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]19th[/TD][TD]305,000[/TD][TD]317,500[/TD][TD]413,000[/TD][TD]18.1[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]20th[/TD][TD]355,000[/TD][TD]372,000[/TD][TD]535,000[/TD][TD]22.4[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[SigmaOne]

Yeah, I am not particularly happy with the XP chart. Hopefully we will see variants in the DMG.

I'm fairly sure Mearls has stated that the DMG would have variants for faster and slower progression, and for "milestone" leveling. He discusses milestone leveling in this Legends & Lore article. I know the philosophy behind the PHB leveling system, as clearly stated by previous posters, has also been discussed (though I don't know if in L&L or not).

 

[Darrius_Adler]

Ok, so this is the xp calculations I am thinking of going with and the final XP progression chart. As I mentioned this is for a chat game and as such the XP rewards work very differently than in table top. For any given short adventure (figure a several hours of real world time) the maximum xp a PC can receive is equal to the Medium XP award for their level as listed in the Basic DMG. An adventure that is run over several days allows the xp to be earned once for each day. The chart below assumes that you typically get half the Medium XP award for your typical encounter. So if your managing to earn the maximum xp in each adventure you go on then you will halve the number of encounters needed to level listed on the chart.

I am sure this probably looks like pretty slow progression but in a chat where there are multiple DMs it is possible that one person may manage to go on several adventures in a single day. It is slower than table top but it is a necessary change for a chat setting.

[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]Level[/td]
[td]XP needed to advance to the next level[/td]
[td]Number of encounters at Medium difficulty to advance[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]300[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]600[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]900[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]1500[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]3,500[/td]
[td]14[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]4,200[/td]
[td]14[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]5,250[/td]
[td]14[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]14,000[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]7,700[/td]
[td]14[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]9,600[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]12,800[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]16,000[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]17,600[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]20,000[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]22,400[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]28,800[/td]
[td]18[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]39,000[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]46,200[/td]
[td]22[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]58,800[/td]
[td]24[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]N/A[/td]
[td]N/A[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

[table="width: 250, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]Experience Points[/td]
[td]Level[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]0[/td]
[td]1st[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]300[/td]
[td]2nd[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]900[/td]
[td]3rd[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1,800[/td]
[td]4th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3,300[/td]
[td]5th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6,800[/td]
[td]6th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11,000[/td]
[td]7th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16,250[/td]
[td]8th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]22,550[/td]
[td]9th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]30,250[/td]
[td]10th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]39,850[/td]
[td]11th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]52,650[/td]
[td]12th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]68,650[/td]
[td]13th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]86,250[/td]
[td]14th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]106,250[/td]
[td]15th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]128,650[/td]
[td]16th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]157,450[/td]
[td]17th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]196,450[/td]
[td]18th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]242,650[/td]
[td]19th[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]301,450[/td]
[td]20th[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

 

[W_K]

That is the intended curve. Basically, they want the majority of playing time in the sweet spot of 3rd to 10th levels. They've found that this is where the majority of people play. If Levels 11-20 take as long as 1-10, or even longer, people burn out and campaigns falter. The idea is a quick ramp to 3rd level, a long time spent from 3rd to 10th as the meat of the game, and then relatively rapid advancement through levels 11-20 so people can play and enjoy those levels without burning out.

Now I'm wondering if the DMG might have alternate xp progression charts. It seems like you could really effect the tone of a game in a meaningful way just by specifically altering the leveling curve. This is probably not in the cards, but it does make for an interesting thought experiment.

 

[TerraDave]

That is the intended curve. Basically, they want the majority of playing time in the sweet spot of 3rd to 10th levels. They've found that this is where the majority of people play. If Levels 11-20 take as long as 1-10, or even longer, people burn out and campaigns falter. The idea is a quick ramp to 3rd level, a long time spent from 3rd to 10th as the meat of the game, and then relatively rapid advancement through levels 11-20 so people can play and enjoy those levels without burning out.

Time per encounter, both in the actual encounter, but sometimes also with the stuff around it, also tends to be higher at high levels. So this sort of makes up for it.

And means you will be at level 10. For a while.