D&D 5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

[evilbob]

Except that, in reality, if I mention a same-sex partner, people say I shouldn't talk about that near kids, while if I say the exact same things about an opposite-sex partner, they don't notice. When I mention the same-sex partner, they think "I just heard something about sexuality".

...

But what usually happens is that people will let someone say their character is married, but if the partner is same-sex, they suddenly declare that this is Exposing Kids To Sexuality.

Haven't read this discussion either but 1) talking about being something that isn't straight is NOT talking about sex. It's like talking about whether someone is a boy, girl, or something in between. Or if someone is a different ethnic background. Or what food you like.

2) How / why / what are people talking about "protecting" kids from when it comes to people who aren't straight? Is that seriously what someone is saying?

 

[neobolts]

One of my favourite things in 5e is the section on PC gender. I won't repeat the entire quote, because I don't have a PHB on me, but it amounts to "you can be male, female, transgender... and your sexuality doesn't matter. It's good. Be who you want to be". This is an awesome thing, and I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised.

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Are there any LGBTQ characters in the adventures? None spring to mind, which makes me think the PHB was just giving lip service. Is that enough? I'm not at all sure.

...

So, I'm curious - did my table rules have an effect? Did my "open table" change their minds, make them less nervous of attending a table populated by people they don't know?

And this curiousity has got me wondering - is the game's official stance on LGBTQ issues going to help attract new players in those (and other) communities? Does more need to be done, or is the current pace the correct one?

I'm jumping in to a thread 20 days after it started... but here I go anyway.

I think the handling of social issues in 5e is spot-on, able to be sincere without being heavy handed. I'm going to pull out 3 specific examples of their effective but gentle explanations:
1) The brief nod to racial and ethnic diversity within the Human entry (PHB 29).
2) The 2 paragraphs mentioned by OP on sexuality that are very inclusive, and cite both drow matriarchy and depictions of an elf deity to reinforce the notion that this diversity is established practice (PHB 113).
3) The reminder in the Dark Fantasy entry (DMG 40) that you should check with your players to gauge their comfort level with darker subject matter.

Are these statements attracting a more diverse player base to D&D? Probably not. These statements' role is not one of recruitment, but one of a "welcome mat" for various players who have newly arrived at the gaming.

Does WotC need to do more to promote diversity through more further examples in future products? It wouldn't hurt, but is not strictly necessary. The organic process that happens at the game table will produce such results on its own -- including the results OP experienced.

 

[TwoSix]

That is because I have observed that in reality, people often say exactly what GMforPowergamers is saying, but then when an actual person mentions a spouse, suddenly it turns out that merely mentioning being gay is "discussing sexuality and inappropriate for kids". And they always say exactly what GMfPG is saying, but then it sometimes (not always!) turns out to be something else entirely.

And that something else is the thing that has made this be an issue; I've seen too many people turned away from gaming groups for merely mentioning in passing a boyfriend or husband.

The fact that people often turn out to be d***s is a well-known fact of life. But when people say "Trust me, I'm really not a d*** about this," I feel it's polite to assume they mean it and not assume they're just lying in wait to prove their d***ishness.

 

[seebs]

The fact that people often turn out to be d***s is a well-known fact of life. But when people say "Trust me, I'm really not a d*** about this," I feel it's polite to assume they mean it and not assume they're just lying in wait to prove their d***ishness.

In general, I agree, but the standard he appeared to be giving for gay players was "no mention at all of sexual relationships", but his post mentioned several sexual relationships. That doesn't sound to me like "no mention at all of sexuality".

That said, it's totally possible that he really is doing what he says, and that I misunderstood the scope of the "no talking about sexuality". In which case, I am sorry for the misunderstanding, and I retract the criticisms.

 

[TwoSix]

Haven't read this discussion either but 1) talking about being something that isn't straight is NOT talking about sex. It's like talking about whether someone is a boy, girl, or something in between. Or if someone is a different ethnic background. Or what food you like.

It's fairly hard to talk about "sexual identity" without assuming some knowledge about sex. If you say "My character, Mike, is married to Bob", I agree that shouldn't cause an issue any more than "My character, Mike, is married to Linda."

2) How / why / what are people talking about "protecting" kids from when it comes to people who aren't straight? Is that seriously what someone is saying?

That certainly isn't how I'm interpreting it. More of a "don't talk about sex stuff in general during play with kids". No harm in mentioning it in passing, but don't make it a focus in play.

 

[seebs]

That certainly isn't how I'm interpreting it. More of a "don't talk about sex stuff in general during play with kids". No harm in mentioning it in passing, but don't make it a focus in play.

That sounds reasonable. I guess, the thing I was responding to was:

"we don't care what he does as long as he keeps it out of game"

Since "what he does" is be gay, it sounds like having a character in the game who is even identified as gay would count as not keeping it out of the game.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But the example you gave of a gay character as "mentioning sex" wasn't any more of a mention of sex than what you are doing every time you refer to your "brother-in-law" or "kids".



Happens all the time. Someone mentions a husband, they're a dude, someone else says "hey, let's not talk about sexual orientations here".



I know you said it. I believe that you are also sincere. However, that is not how human brains work. Humans notice unusual things but not commonplace things. I've been watching people do this for years. If they believe me to be male, and I refer to a "wife", they don't notice that I said anything that might imply something about orientation, but if I say "husband", they notice.



No. I don't need excuses if I want to be a jerk! However, I don't believe this thing because I've never seen it be actually true, and I've often seen people say it, and clearly sincerely believe it, but at the same time their actions prove that it's not true.



Except that, in reality, if I mention a same-sex partner, people say I shouldn't talk about that near kids, while if I say the exact same things about an opposite-sex partner, they don't notice. When I mention the same-sex partner, they think "I just heard something about sexuality".



As noted, "protecting" the innocence of kids is a disasterously bad strategy. Kids are really good at discarding information they don't care about, and generally if they can ask the question, they can handle the answer.



No one suggested that you ought to. But what usually happens is that people will let someone say their character is married, but if the partner is same-sex, they suddenly declare that this is Exposing Kids To Sexuality.

Maybe you really don't do that, but the fact is, the level of mentioning of relationships you did when describing your table is something that I have frequently seen people react to with hostility and assertions that it is "shoving your sexuality in other people's faces".

this intire post is you thinking something that is just wrong... no one cares if you off hand say 'husband' or 'wife' AT MT TABLE!

 

[seebs]

this intire post is you thinking something that is just wrong... no one cares if you off hand say 'husband' or 'wife' AT MT TABLE!

Okay, fair enough. I had interpreted "keep it out of the game" as applied to a gay player to mean "can't play a character who is identified as gay or has a gay significant other in-game". But most groups will let someone have a significant other in-game, as long as there's no playing-out-sex-scenes or whatever going on.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I spend a lot of my time talking to survivors. It's not a "touchy" topic for me. It's a part of daily life that I keep in mind when dealing with a lot of people I know. But I care more about helping them recover and survive than I do about other people's comfort levels, so instead of treating it like a super-dark horrible thing that must never be mentioned, I treat it like a thing which is part of the world and we have to deal with it sometimes.



You asked whether I think it's okay to tell kids things about sex. My answer is "failure to do so is child endangerment". You don't have to agree with this answer, but accusing me of making it up is sort of spectacularly inappropriate.

If you'd like, I can get a bunch of the people to send you detailed accounts, just so you can rest assured that I wasn't making it up. We all know how important it is to provide adequate proof of victimization to random strangers so they don't have to be mad at you for making it up.

wait... so you don't belive I can run a game with 0 sex or gender in it, and that I must have hidden anti XXXXX feelings, but it's wrong for me not to belive someone throwing around claims of rape to win an argument is doing so with an alterier motive... I don't care who you have say what... you are being very rude this intire time and making up an issue we don't have...

That is because I have observed that in reality, people often say exactly what GMforPowergamers is saying, but then when an actual person mentions a spouse, suddenly it turns out that merely mentioning being gay is "discussing sexuality and inappropriate for kids". And they always say exactly what GMfPG is saying, but then it sometimes (not always!) turns out to be something else entirely.

And that something else is the thing that has made this be an issue; I've seen too many people turned away from gaming groups for merely mentioning in passing a boyfriend or husband.

then tell them to find better players... and DMs... I have very rarely meet anyone who was a jerk about it (I could count maybe 1 handful) and never a whole group... maybe I'm different since I was playing in highschool with a guy who wanted to bring a guy to prom... maybe my group is supper alien... but I think you are over sensitive...

 

[TwoSix]

That sounds reasonable. I guess, the thing I was responding to was:

"we don't care what he does as long as he keeps it out of game"

Since "what he does" is be gay, it sounds like having a character in the game who is even identified as gay would count as not keeping it out of the game.

That's probably the part we're interpreting differently. I don't see "be gay" as something he can "do" in game. Basically, he's saying any of the activities that would identify a character as "gay" (or "straight", for that matter) aren't something to be focused on in during play with kids. That's a standard I probably wouldn't hold to in my own games (by the time my boys are old enough to play "real D&D", they'll be old enough to understand sex and sexuality), but I tend to afford broad latitude to people who want to shield their kids, even if it's not a stand I would take myself.