D&D 5E (2014) 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

[seebs]

True tolerance does not demand endorsement - does not demand "It's OK with me if you live your life in a sinful and/or dishonorable matter" from the faithful.

I think a general standard of tolerance demands that from pretty much everyone. That's sort of the baseline; you get to live your life in ways I wouldn't as long as you aren't harming other people by doing so. It has to be okay with me, because I don't have the right to force you to change it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Maybe! Consider the case where one of the players happens to be gay, and plays a gay character because that's easier for them to get into character with. And someone else says that bothers them. Well, being told that who you are bothers someone is not something that I think necessarily creates a moral duty in you to turn into someone else.

it depends... if I walk into a game were people don't wish to discuss my personal life (for any reason, maybe poltical, maybe religus, maybe sexual) and I inisit on not only making it a point in game, but forcing it... no matter what it is, is still being a jerk...

in my above examples if your "Gay Player" wants to sit down with my brother in law, my neice, my nephew and one of my other friends and play D&D... he or she needs to respect that we don't care what he does as long as he keeps it out of game, and out of ear shot of my two small kids... I would feel no different if a "Straight Player" insisted on bringing sex and gender into the game...

 

[seebs]

it depends... if I walk into a game were people don't wish to discuss my personal life (for any reason, maybe poltical, maybe religus, maybe sexual) and I inisit on not only making it a point in game, but forcing it... no matter what it is, is still being a jerk...

I'm... not sure of that.

I've been playing D&D for >30 years now, and I've seen a whole lot of people play a whole lot of characters. And guys mention having a girlfriend or wife, and it is never an issue. Not once, ever. But if a guy mentions a boyfriend or husband, suddenly it's an "issue", and they're "making it a point in game". And that's sort of unfair and unbalanced, and no, I don't think it's "being a jerk" to refuse to accept that bias.

in my above examples if your "Gay Player" wants to sit down with my brother in law, my neice, my nephew and one of my other friends and play D&D... he or she needs to respect that we don't care what he does as long as he keeps it out of game, and out of ear shot of my two small kids... I would feel no different if a "Straight Player" insisted on bringing sex and gender into the game...

I simply don't believe you. Because the thing that gay people do that gets accused of "bringing sex and gender into the game" is nothing more than mentioning their relationships in passing. And I don't believe for a minute that you'd even consciously notice if a straight male player referred to his "wife", or referred to kids (which would sort of imply sex).

And that's why this is a big problem; because we take straight people for granted so much that mentions of a wife or girlfriend or kids don't even sound like mentioning sexuality to us. So people say "oh, I'd be upset if anyone brought it up", but the fact is, if you have precisely parallel behaviors, there are a whole lot of behaviors that get gay people yelled at and don't even get noticed when straight people do them.

That's why this is an issue that justifies some kind of attention or discussion in the community; because people will drive other people away with bigoted double standards and have no awareness that they're doing so.

 

[mrm1138]

in my above examples if your "Gay Player" wants to sit down with my brother in law, my neice, my nephew and one of my other friends and play D&D... he or she needs to respect that we don't care what he does as long as he keeps it out of game, and out of ear shot of my two small kids... I would feel no different if a "Straight Player" insisted on bringing sex and gender into the game...

What I'm trying to figure out is if just playing as a gay or trans character—mind you, the player isn't graphically describing his/her sexual relations—is enough to be considered inappropriate for your children. A complaint I've heard from some is that the section on sex and gender in the PHB is some sort of proof that WotC no longer cares whether younger roleplayers get into D&D. However, that line of thinking assumes that the mere existence of LGBT humans is somehow not suitable for anyone under a certain age to know about, and that strikes me as... messed up.

 

[seebs]

So I just realized.

Let me quote again:

in my above examples if your "Gay Player" wants to sit down with my brother in law, my neice, my nephew and one of my other friends and play D&D... he or she needs to respect that we don't care what he does as long as he keeps it out of game, and out of ear shot of my two small kids...

So your brother-in-law, which is to say, the person in a sexual relationship with your sibling, and their kids, who presuambly resulted from that sexual relationship, and your two kids, who presumably resulted from some kind of sexual relationship, are all relevant to your claim that people should never, ever, mention sexual relationships in the gaming group?

Think about it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If you can say "my wife" within earshot of your two small kids and it's not an issue, I don't quite get why Hypothetical Lesbian Gamer Janelle would be forbidden from saying that.

I mean, you probably wouldn't go into graphic detail about turgid members and gimp masks or whatever and Janelle probably shouldn't either, but there's a big gap between "Hey, kids, my wife and I <blank> our <whatits> and <boing!> our <doohickeys> and she really likes it when we <ooooh>," and "My wife was drivin' me bananas about the dishes last night so I didn't get to bake the cookies for the group like I said I would SORRY."

Neither of my gaming groups includes small kids within earshot, and I know that sexual innuendo and dirty jokes are a part of both my in-person group which is mostly gay men AND my online group which I think is all straight guys. Thinking about it, this....may be because both groups are mostly guys, though the former includes a (straight) woman and the latter sometimes includes a straight woman. I kind of wonder now if both have had the same thought: "allright, guys, stop talking about wangs for like 30 seconds, okay? I wanna kill some goblins."

Though some of my largely female groups have been known to be pretty raunchy, too...

...maybe the kids are the deciding factor.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm... not sure of that.

I don't care what you belive... if you mention sex in a game with my 6 and 8 year olds I will boot your butt...gay or straight.

I've been playing D&D for >30 years now, and I've seen a whole lot of people play a whole lot of characters.

me too, and there are different social dynamics at different tables... you need to respect that.

And guys mention having a girlfriend or wife, and it is never an issue. Not once, ever. But if a guy mentions a boyfriend or husband, suddenly it's an "issue", and they're "making it a point in game".

I call BS I have never seen anyone who 'makes a passing mention of a significant other' mattering... I don't care if you say "My boyfriend would love this game" or "My girlfriend would love this game" in passing... But if your character is trying to mack it with a guy,girl, or other (DO mindlayers have gender) you will be asked to leave...

And that's sort of unfair and unbalanced, and no, I don't think it's "being a jerk" to refuse to accept that bias.

You just made this bias up... I said from the start no double standard...

I simply don't believe you.

because you want an excuse to be a jekr...

Because the thing that gay people do that gets accused of "bringing sex and gender into the game" is nothing more than mentioning their relationships in passing. And I don't believe for a minute that you'd even consciously notice if a straight male player referred to his "wife", or referred to kids (which would sort of imply sex).

except no one cares who your dateing... they care that you keep details out of ear shot of 2 young kids... details about gay or straight... they are too young for it.

And that's why this is a big problem; because we take straight people for granted so much that mentions of a wife or girlfriend or kids don't even sound like mentioning sexuality to us. So people say "oh, I'd be upset if anyone brought it up", but the fact is, if you have precisely parallel behaviors, there are a whole lot of behaviors that get gay people yelled at and don't even get noticed when straight people do them.

guess what you make a false comparison... I don't care who you like who you kiss or when...just don't talk to a kid about it for god sake...

That's why this is an issue that justifies some kind of attention or discussion in the community; because people will drive other people away with bigoted double standards and have no awareness that they're doing so.

double standards go both ways... if I wont let someone play "Randy the ROgue" and let them seduce and woa woman and make off hand remarks about there money going to wenches... why should I let someone play "Gary the Gay" and go off about making it with guys and likeing the kings butt?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What I'm trying to figure out is if just playing as a gay or trans character—mind you, the player isn't graphically describing his/her sexual relations—is enough to be considered inappropriate for your children. A complaint I've heard from some is that the section on sex and gender in the PHB is some sort of proof that WotC no longer cares whether younger roleplayers get into D&D. However, that line of thinking assumes that the mere existence of LGBT humans is somehow not suitable for anyone under a certain age to know about, and that strikes me as... messed up.

If you are playing a woman, just play a woman... if she used to be or was born a guy that has to stay in your head if you are playing with my neice and nephew... if your male character wants to sleep with every woman, keep that in your head too, if you want to sleep with every man same thing... if you want to sleep with both just keep it to yourself.

I don't understand how hard it is for people to get "Hey I don't care, and some tables it's OK to do and some tables it's not..."

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So I just realized.

Let me quote again:



So your brother-in-law, which is to say, the person in a sexual relationship with your sibling, and their kids, who presuambly resulted from that sexual relationship, and your two kids, who presumably resulted from some kind of sexual relationship, are all relevant to your claim that people should never, ever, mention sexual relationships in the gaming group?

Think about it.

yea, and the fact that at least my neice for sure doesn't under stand that (God I don't know how much my nephew does or doesn't understand yet) means it goes un mentioned...

it's almost like you think they know there parents do in there bed at night, and it's ok to talk about it with little kids...

 

[TwoSix]

it depends... if I walk into a game were people don't wish to discuss my personal life (for any reason, maybe poltical, maybe religus, maybe sexual) and I inisit on not only making it a point in game, but forcing it... no matter what it is, is still being a jerk...

in my above examples if your "Gay Player" wants to sit down with my brother in law, my neice, my nephew and one of my other friends and play D&D... he or she needs to respect that we don't care what he does as long as he keeps it out of game, and out of ear shot of my two small kids... I would feel no different if a "Straight Player" insisted on bringing sex and gender into the game...

I'm pretty sure I'm hearing what you're saying. If there's kids around, keep explicit sex talk and raunch out of the game. As a father myself, I'm totally with you.

The lingering question is whether identifying your character as having a sexual preference, any preference, bring too much sex talk into a game with kids? Since there's an assumed default of "straight", a player might figure it's important to bring up their character as non-straight just to make that a point of differentiation. Is that too far in a game with kids, because there's little point to be talking about sexual orientation at all during a D&D game?