D&D 5E 5th edition monks

[Warpiglet]

Well, because WotC has gone with two points per modifier, things get a bit wonky IMO. While they consider 10 "average", technically it is 10.5 since both 10 and 11 are no modifier. So, really 10 is average, but below I.Q. 100. Really, anything between 86-114 would be represented by 10 or 11. Here's the idea:

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So, an INT of 8 or 9 is below average, but still capable of fully functioning in normal situations. Getting into the I.Q. range of 56-70 or INT 6-7 is where you would have difficulty.

Also, FWIW, most I.Q. tests aren't designed to test scores much below 50 I.Q. And, of course, many individuals have I.Q. scores well above 175, which doesn't really translate since 5E caps scores normally at 20.

Obviously this is far from perfect, but gives a decent basis for someone who wants to think of the comparison between I.Q. and an Intelligence score. But...

This is an idea I've been using since the 1990's, even with 1E before that when a INT 17 was the point of "genius." But, since 5E turned the dynamic of ability scores to not just be natural ability, but also training in appropriate skills, it breaks down.

I like what you are doing. However I would note that historically only about 2.5% of the population has an IQ above 130 if we are using the wechsler III or before.

I can't recall if I actually administered the IV or not but assume it still has a mean of 100 and SD Of 15 as well.

In a like vein a 14 strength would be uncommon in the days of Gygax where a 10 was a person "in good shape" from manual labor! I would have to revisit the lifting capacity in 5e to figure it out as it stands now.

not sure if the IQ stuff helps but interesting project you have.

Another consideration is that IQ and functioning don't always perfectly align. Some people who aren't very quick are more functional than you might guess despite what intelligence is supposed to mean.

I think a 5 INT would most certainly have some form of dysfunction. A 6-7 would likely as well. Heck, an 8 would be noticeable. A 9 could pass for average in many circumstances.

And I hate to say it but we are biased by our cohort. Playing D&D and not sniffing glue in high school led me to a group of friends (still together many years later) who have all been accomplished --maybe I am an outlier and they wonder how I fit --My sample (and frankly a lot of geeks) are probably not normally distributed.

Betting many posters here would notice an 8-9 in their game group after a few sessions. Maybe not.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I like what you are doing. However I would note that historically only about 2.5% of the population has an IQ above 130 if we are using the wechsler III or before.

I can't recall if I actually administered the IV or not but assume it still has a mean of 100 and SD Of 15 as well.

In a like vein a 14 strength would be uncommon in the days of Gygax where a 10 was a person "in good shape" from manual labor! I would have to revisit the lifting capacity in 5e to figure it out as it stands now.

not sure if the IQ stuff helps but interesting project you have.

Another consideration is that IQ and functioning don't always perfectly align. Some people who aren't very quick are more functional than you might guess despite what intelligence is supposed to mean.

I think a 5 INT would most certainly have some form of dysfunction. A 6-7 would likely as well. Heck, an 8 would be noticeable. A 9 could pass for average in many circumstances.

And I hate to say it but we are biased by our cohort. Playing D&D and not sniffing glue in high school led me to a group of friends (still together many years later) who have all been accomplished --maybe I am an outlier and they wonder how I fit --My sample (and frankly a lot of geeks) are probably not normally distributed.

Betting many posters here would notice an 8-9 in their game group after a few sessions. Maybe not.

Thanks. Yeah, most people don't realize that truly exceptional ability scores IRL are pretty uncommon. We are so used to high scores in D&D, even from the beginning, that "exceptional" has become "normal".

Consider what you can lift, drag, etc. with a STR 16 in 5E. Using the STR x30 rule that is 480 pounds! I don't know many people IRL who can lift that much. Now, I am not talking merely deadlifting, but also being able to pull or drag that much, etc.

So, someone with a +1 modifier is common enough, +2 is uncommon, +3 is rare, +4 very rare, and +5 would be quite remarkable IMO. But, in 5E, characters routinely have +2, +3, and better in one or more ability scores, making them well beyond the norm. So, as I said, "exceptional" has become "normal".

 

[Warpiglet]

Thanks. Yeah, most people don't realize that truly exceptional ability scores IRL are pretty uncommon. We are so used to high scores in D&D, even from the beginning, that "exceptional" has become "normal".

Consider what you can lift, drag, etc. with a STR 16 in 5E. Using the STR x30 rule that is 480 pounds! I don't know many people IRL who can lift that much. Now, I am not talking merely deadlifting, but also being able to pull or drag that much, etc.

So, someone with a +1 modifier is common enough, +2 is uncommon, +3 is rare, +4 very rare, and +5 would be quite remarkable IMO. But, in 5E, characters routinely have +2, +3, and better in one or more ability scores, making them well beyond the norm. So, as I said, "exceptional" has become "normal".

Right. Sadly I think my RL modifiers probably net a cumulative -4

In all seriousness you are spot on. I guess some of those worlds strongest man contestants would be in the 19-20 range?

But that is the fun of being a hero!

I am not sure if it would add to the fun or over complicate our classic game...but some combination of dex and str would make sense for to hit modifiers for monks (given currenr topic) but also for fighters.

As to INT and wisdom...

I would think much of use of CHR in 5e would actually map onto executive functioning in RL and hence WIS score in game (I.e. Self control and sense of self) while charisma would be social IQ to a larger extent.

I think they made CHR too broad but it's close enough for me. I just love playing...and only really being his stuff in a forum. I play through any game mechanic issues...

 

[DND_Reborn]

Right. Sadly I think my RL modifiers probably net a cumulative -4

In all seriousness you are spot on. I guess some of those worlds strongest man contestants would be in the 19-20 range?

But that is the fun of being a hero!

I am not sure if it would add to the fun or over complicate our classic game...but some combination of dex and str would make sense for to hit modifiers for monks (given currenr topic) but also for fighters.

As to INT and wisdom...

I would think much of use of CHR in 5e would actually map onto executive functioning in RL and hence WIS score in game (I.e. Self control and sense of self) while charisma would be social IQ to a larger extent.

I think they made CHR too broad but it's close enough for me. I just love playing...and only really being his stuff in a forum. I play through any game mechanic issues...

Ha! I am sure that is why most of us actually like to play RPGs.

I am on the other side of things were I like keeping my characters more tamed (maybe a +3 and a +2, a couple +1's, and a couple +0's or even a -1) and use my ASIs for feats. I prefer my characters actions define them as heroes not their ability scores.

I've thought about the using two scores idea as well but also think it would have to be a complete revamp. And I agree that CHA is too broad in 5E (over compensating from earlier editions).

 

[BookBarbarian]

In all seriousness you are spot on. I guess some of those worlds strongest man contestants would be in the 19-20 range?

I was thinking about this. With the world record deadlift being 1102 lbs (a crazy phenomenal feat of strength, perhaps the most impressive ever) dividing that by 30 would result in a Strength score of 36.7.

So crazy off the scale, but If you say professional strongmen have a feature like Powerful Build or the Brawny feat which doubles carrying capacity (and if you are a professional strongman that would be a much more useful use of an ASI than a +2 to Strength) you are right at a strength score of 18.3.

Which gives us a great mark for peak human lifting ability and gives us room to be heroes that are stronger than that.

 

[Warpiglet]

I was thinking about this. With the world record deadlift being 1102 lbs (a crazy phenomenal feat of strength, perhaps the most impressive ever) dividing that by 30 would result in a Strength score of 36.7.

So crazy off the scale, but If you say professional strongmen have a feature like Powerful Build or the Brawny feat which doubles carrying capacity (and if you are a professional strongman that would be a much more useful use of an ASI than a +2 to Strength) you are right at a strength score of 18.3.

Which gives us a great mark for peak human lifting ability and gives us room to be heroes that are stronger than that.

Very cool!

 

[DND_Reborn]

I was thinking about this. With the world record deadlift being 1102 lbs (a crazy phenomenal feat of strength, perhaps the most impressive ever) dividing that by 30 would result in a Strength score of 36.7.

So crazy off the scale, but If you say professional strongmen have a feature like Powerful Build or the Brawny feat which doubles carrying capacity (and if you are a professional strongman that would be a much more useful use of an ASI than a +2 to Strength) you are right at a strength score of 18.3.

Which gives us a great mark for peak human lifting ability and gives us room to be heroes that are stronger than that.

5E doesn't do a good job of modeling real-world physics but it isn't bad necessarily. This is why I excluded dead-lift from my post, because it is very different than being able to pull or drag over 1000 lbs. Now, if you are talking about a weight on wheels, etc. But I find it impossible... yes, impossible... to believe anyone can move a 1000 block of concrete for example lying on a patch of dry ground. We simply lack the mass to push up against it an move it. Place it next to a cliff wall so you can use that to brace yourself, and then... maybe... maybe an incredible strong person could move it... slightly.

FWIW, when I was in high school, I could dead lift about 450 lbs. That would give me a STR 15. LOL no way! I was only 145 lbs myself and at best might have had a STR 10 or 11. Even now that I am much older but have lifted weights, I might be lucky to have a 12 or 13 IMO.

Now, at the same time, back then, I lost a bet with another guy on the track team and had to give him a piggy-back ride around the track. They guy weighed about 180-185, and I wasn't moving fast of course, but I made it the whole 1/4-mile. Assuming I was heavily encumbered (I would say so!), that would say my STR was about 12. A bit of a stretch, but maybe...

This is why things like making your Strength (Athletics) check should modify your ability for lifts, etc.

 

[BookBarbarian]

5E doesn't do a good job of modeling real-world physics but it isn't bad necessarily.

Oh not at all, but If the game actually incorporated things like the square cube ratio it would be extremely slow to run.

This is why I excluded dead-lift from my post, because it is very different than being able to pull or drag over 1000 lbs. Now, if you are talking about a weight on wheels, etc. But I find it impossible... yes, impossible... to believe anyone can move a 1000 block of concrete for example lying on a patch of dry ground. We simply lack the mass to push up against it an move it. Place it next to a cliff wall so you can use that to brace yourself, and then... maybe... maybe an incredible strong person could move it... slightly.

Yup, that would be a practically impossible. As they say in Strongman "Mass Moves Mass". The size of handles used, and even if an event has handles at all drastically effects possible lifts too.

To highlight the variance here is Brian Shaw walking with a 1565 lbs yoke
and lifting a 560 lb Atlas Stone (round stone sphere)
Edit: pulling need not secondarily need wheels, but obviously friction will vary from object to object (and from terrain to terrain).

These chains and anchors for example are 660lbs

 

[DND_Reborn]

Oh not at all, but If the game actually incorporated things like the square cube ratio it would be extremely slow to run.
Yup, that would be a practically impossible. As they say in Strongman "Mass Moves Mass". The size of handles used, and even if an event has handles at all drastically effects possible lifts too.

To highlight the variance here is Brian Shaw walking with a 1565 lbs yoke
and lifting a 560 lb Atlas Stone (round stone sphere)

Very cool! But that really proves my point. Given the advantages of the yoke design would impact the effective ability of the lifter's STR.

Even the stone at 560 would require a STR 19, which is an excellent demonstration! But could he lift it and move it 5 feet per six seconds, etc.? Probably not. And it is a sphere, so with a good braced start I could even push it and get it rolling...

But 5E doesn't really get into the physics of it all, preferring a simplified approach, which is fine and works well enough for what it is.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Very cool! But that really proves my point. Given the advantages of the yoke design would impact the effective ability of the lifter's STR.

Even the stone at 560 would require a STR 19, which is an excellent demonstration! But could he lift it and move it 5 feet per six seconds, etc.? Probably not. And it is a sphere, so with a good braced start I could even push it and get it rolling...

A great Question! And since i love strongman another video! Hafthor Bjornsson here is carrying an lighter 409 lbs stone for 322 ft in about 47 seconds. So something like 6.85 feet each second or 41 feat per round.

There is a good chance he is an actual Goliath or Bear Totem Barbarian though. (and obviously no weight of adventuring gear)

But 5E doesn't really get into the physics of it all, preferring a simplified approach, which is fine and works well enough for what it is.

Yep, it really is good enough