D&D 5E 5th edition Ranger: Why does every class have to have it's own schtick?

[Jessica]

I think they kind of do have a schtick when you stop trying to make the Ranger spellless by default. They are a nature warrior who can call on said powers of nature to improve their tracking ability, hurt the enemy, and help their allies. Outlander can't do that. Magic Initiate can give you one spell once per day to sort of let you pretend you can do that*, but it doesn't adequately cover it. Rangers have had spellcasting be default in every edition except 4th(I stayed away from most Essentials classes so I'm not too familiar with the Scout/Hunter) and one of the reasons Rangers didn't have identity problems in 4e is because the Fighter was pretty much limited to melee for it's class abilities instead of stepping all over the Ranger.

*I always thought Magic Initiates strength was for grabbing cantrips that can change up a certain classes playstyle. Like letting a Bard have cantrips that hit for more than 1d4 or giving a Paladin access to the SCAG melee cantrips or giving a Wis based non-Druid access to Shillelagh.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Rangers have had spellcasting be default in every edition except 4th...

I think this argument starts to feel a little shaky when you consider the levels at which they attained spellcasting in those editions: 8th level in 1E and 2E, 4th level in 3E. If you played by the rules as written in AD&D, most ranger characters died long before they ever cast a spell.

 

[Jessica]

I think this argument starts to feel a little shaky when you consider the levels at which they attained spellcasting in those editions: 8th level in 1E and 2E, 4th level in 3E. If you played by the rules as written in AD&D, most ranger characters died long before they ever cast a spell.

They were always hybrid casters. In AD&D, Paladins and Rangers were hybrid casters getting up to 4th level spells and 3rd level spells respectively. In 3.X that was upgraded to 4th level spells for both. The people who made 5e determined that hybrid casters would go up to 5th level spells. Even if a lot of people never made it to that high of level(me and my friends rarely had a campaign that lasted more than a few sessions so we definitely didn't), it's still a part of what a Ranger or Paladin is supposed to be at higher levels.

 

[Sacrosanct]

They were always hybrid casters. In AD&D, Paladins and Rangers were hybrid casters getting up to 4th level spells and 3rd level spells respectively. In 3.X that was upgraded to 4th level spells for both. The people who made 5e determined that hybrid casters would go up to 5th level spells. Even if a lot of people never made it to that high of level(me and my friends rarely had a campaign that lasted more than a few sessions so we definitely didn't), it's still a part of what a Ranger or Paladin is supposed to be at higher levels.

What he's saying though, that in practical application in 1e, most weren't casters because they didn't get spells until 8th level. In todays' context 8th level might not seem very high, but back in the day, it was high level. 9th level was name level, where you started getting into strongholds and realm management. Also, most PCs played were well below level 10. IIRC, I remember a survey a while back where roughly 80% of gaming was between levels 3-7. He's also right that many ranger (and all PCs) died before level 8.

So in context, if only a small % of rangers could actually cast spells, I wouldn't exactly call them hybrid casters. It would be like calling thieves hybrid casters because they could use scrolls at 10th level.

 

[Greg K]

Isn't that a barbarian now?

I mean, I know Minsc was a ranger, but he's from before the barbarian was a core class.

1985 1e Barbarian appeared, officially, in the 1e Unearthed Arcana (it appeared unofficially, prior to UA as a preview in Dragon Magazine)
1989: 2e Complete Fighters Handbook published with several "barbarian" kits including the Barbarian Berserker, and Wilderness Warrior
1998: Minsc appears in Baldur's Gate

 

[TheCosmicKid]

They were always hybrid casters. In AD&D, Paladins and Rangers were hybrid casters getting up to 4th level spells and 3rd level spells respectively. In 3.X that was upgraded to 4th level spells for both. The people who made 5e determined that hybrid casters would go up to 5th level spells. Even if a lot of people never made it to that high of level(me and my friends rarely had a campaign that lasted more than a few sessions so we definitely didn't), it's still a part of what a Ranger or Paladin is supposed to be at higher levels.

There's a pretty big difference between "a part of what [class] is supposed to be at higher levels" and a class' "schtick". The rogue's schtick is Sneak Attack, not Slippery Mind.

If if they did die before reaching those levels, spellcasting was still a core part of the overall class. It would be like saying that casting 5th level spells aren't a default part of a wizard because many of them die before reaching 9th level... Or saying that casting 2nd level spells aren't a default part of a wizard considering how fragile they were back in the day.

The core part of the wizard isn't casting a specific level of spells, it's casting spells. Every wizard can do it (Rincewind notwithstanding), and from the start of the campaign until the end it's the main way they contribute to the success of the party in all its endeavors. That's a schtick.

So what is the thing every ranger can do and that they do from the start of the campaign until the end? It's not spellcasting. It's wilderness survival.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

1985 1e Barbarian appeared, officially, in the 1e Unearthed Arcana (it appeared unofficially, prior to UA as a preview in Dragon Magazine)
1989: 2e Complete Fighters Handbook published with several "barbarian" kits including the Barbarian Berserker, and Wilderness Warrior
1998: Minsc appears in Baldur's Gate

...which is why I used the word "core". There was no barbarian class in core-rules-only Baldur's Gate, and it was not an option when they designed Minsc. Had it been an option, is there really any question that he would have been one?

 

[Greg K]

...which is why I used the word "core". There was no barbarian class in core-rules-only Baldur's Gate, and it was not an option when they designed Minsc. Had it been an option, is there really any question that he would have been one?

Actually, you didn't specify core class for Baldur's Gate . That's ok. I forgot that kits were not part of the original Baldur's Gate

 

[Lanefan]

And survival only works on ground based tracks and is defeated by pass without trace.

All tracking should be defeated by Pass Without Trace. That is, after all, the point of the spell.

You can't get even get 1/10 of that on one nonranger fighter. And you can't even track airborne nor waterborn targets with just the Survival skill.

Same with invisibe ememies or darkness spewing foes during.

D&D pretty much says " Thou cannot track a dragon without magic and really good Stealth and Perception skill"

That's fine with me - while you should be able to track an invisible creature that is leaving actual tracks (i.e. not flying, swimming, etc.), the rest of this is pure common sense. Darkness? Just walk around it and pick up the tracks again; and if there's no tracks then waste the Darkness 'cause that's where your quarry is.

Tracking airborne or waterborne creatures once they are out of sight is impossible in my game, with the rare exception of a waterborne creature that has just passed out of sight might leave a slight wake you can follow.

And no, if a Dragon flies away you shouldn't be able to directly track it; instead you watch it fly off then find a way to scry it (Reflecting Pool, Clairvoyance, or a host of devices) and see where it goes.

Lan-"giving Rangers spells at 2nd level only serves to turn them into yet another caster class, of which there's already enough"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

And my perception of a Ranger's wilderness survival kit includes the spells that they gain as they level up, as far as I'm concerned it's part and parcel of being a DnD ranger.

Except if you want to make them function like a 1e Ranger (which I most certainly would) they're not going to get those spells until way way higher level.

One aspect I haven't seen mentioned at all yet: do any of you have magical herbs or plants in your games? We do, and Rangers are by far the best at both finding and using such to the point where it becomes an actual defining class feature.

Lanefan