D&D 5E 5th edition Ranger: Why does every class have to have it's own schtick?

[Azurewraith]

Game breaking? How much damage can you possibly do? If you're in a natural environment and you lure your target into attack range and you've been hidden there for a minute and you win the surprise check, you get two, maybe three attacks with advantage? Let's say you're an archer with Sharpshooting, and you take the -5 to hit because you've got advantage. If you hit both attacks you get 2d8+20+DEXx2 damage, plus magic weapon damage if your bow is magic. You also get to vanish afterward, so that's cool.

Is there anything else you can heap on for damage? I saw spells and animal companions and stopped paying attention to the PHB ranger, so I'm sure there's something about this I'm missing. I must be, because even if all those situational and environmental conditions are met, a FTR/ROG can pull off the same ambush in any environment and deal a lot more damage (somewhere in the vicinity of six critical hits) without all that complicated setup.

Lightning arrow in a 5th lvl slot would make it 6d8 for weapon damge plus if I understand correctly an additional 5d8.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't remember if it was this thread I got the idea from of making Ranger use spells prepared instead of spells known, like the paladin does. To check the math on it, I reread how it all worked, and found something I thought was interesting. I made a list of all the classes and the maximum spells they can know or prepare just from sub-class and stats. I didn't bother with sub-classes that do not get spells.

[sblock] Classes: Spells Known/Prepared at MAX

Cleric: 25 prepared, 10 domain spells

Druid: 25 prepared, (8 land spells)

Bard: 22 spells known, 4 magical secrets (2 additional for lore)

Wizard: 25 spells prepared

Paladin: 15 prepared, 10 oath

Warlock: 15 spells known (4 Arcanum,add potential Invocations)

Ranger (with houserules) 15 prepared

Sorcerer: 15 spells known

Fighter: 13 spells known

Rogue: 13 spells known

Ranger(Current): 11 known

Monk: Variable per Ki and sub-class (highest around 5 disciplines)

Barbarian: 3 rituals [/sblock]

What kind of shocked me is both how many spells Paladins get (divine casters, wow) while the current ranger, which is a half-caster officially, gets fewer spells known than both the 1/3 casters which are only sub-classes. So I don't think the preparing spells would be too terrible a change.

 

[Shendorion]

Lightning arrow in a 5th lvl slot would make it 6d8 for weapon damge plus if I understand correctly an additional 5d8.

Lighting arrow's duration is one minute. You have to be hidden for at least one minute to perform the ambush. You can't use both. Even if that combo did work, wouldn't you have to be lv. 17 to use it?

You could use Hunter's Mark to squeeze out a little more damage, and the right hunter specialty gets you an extra d8 on the second shot if the first hits, but the combo is still difficult to set up, and not terribly effective when it works.

 

[Azurewraith]

Lighting arrow's duration is one minute. You have to be hidden for at least one minute to perform the ambush. You can't use both. Even if that combo did work, wouldn't you have to be lv. 17 to use it?

You could use Hunter's Mark to squeeze out a little more damage, and the right hunter specialty gets you an extra d8 on the second shot if the first hits, but the combo is still difficult to set up, and not terribly effective when it works.

I was assuming it was theorycraft so assumed level 20. Totally forgot the durations not syncing up guess a wood elf in the rain could just do a hide roll and roll really high. Not practical I know

 

[Shendorion]

That pretty much sums up the ranger's problems. His strengths are so situational he might never get to pull off his best tricks in a campaign, even with a DM helping set the stage for them. The best way to build a ranger in this system is to ignore the class itself. If you want a good spellcasting ranger with frontline fighting ability, there's a paladin oath for that. If you want a slippery, versatile survivalist, a rogue with the right background and some dipping does it better. If you want the master ambusher, ROG3/FTR11 pulls it off to greater effect without even having to set it up in advance. The only thing the ranger does that no class does better is the fighting animal companion, which is a dubious benefit in and of itself. The class is a trap for the unwary.

 

[Minigiant]

Lighting arrow's duration is one minute. You have to be hidden for at least one minute to perform the ambush. You can't use both. Even if that combo did work, wouldn't you have to be lv. 17 to use it?

You could use Hunter's Mark to squeeze out a little more damage, and the right hunter specialty gets you an extra d8 on the second shot if the first hits, but the combo is still difficult to set up, and not terribly effective when it works.

You don't cast Lightning arrow until you seen the enemy. Lightning arrow + Volley is nasty on mobs when it works.

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The problem is D&D is not an assassination, hunting, or survival game. It's not 1 or 2 guys picking off warband one by one then appearing near the commander with all their men's heads ready for a duel.

The ranger is an antagonist by nature. The antagonist of the enemy. That's why rangers are annoying as villians as they are stealthy and sturdy and therefore can slowly wear down a PC group.

But PC groups do not tend to play that way.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Depending on how it was ruled, which I understand is an issue in itself, a ranger could hide with with the plain sight ability then cast lightning arrow without being noticed. Maybe a sleight of hand check if Lightning Arrow has somatic components. This way the durations aren't an issue. Or, Lightning Arrow is a bonus action to cast anyways, so you can cast then shoot.

 

[Shendorion]

If you use your bonus action to cast Lighting Arrow, you don't get to vanish after the shot. You're also using a lv. 17 character with a ton of setup in a specific situation to pull off a trick that's done better by a lv. 14 character in any environment without all the setup costs. If your ranger can cast the lv. 5 spell without being seen (something the DM will have to waive the rules to allow,) you're still getting outdamaged, and the multi can vanish after it attacks.

Your DM has to give this shot to you, and you're still going to get shown up by a book legal character that needs no accommodations from the DM.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If you use your bonus action to cast Lighting Arrow, you don't get to vanish after the shot. You're also using a lv. 17 character with a ton of setup in a specific situation to pull off a trick that's done better by a lv. 14 character in any environment without all the setup costs. If your ranger can cast the lv. 5 spell without being seen (something the DM will have to waive the rules to allow,) you're still getting outdamaged, and the multi can vanish after it attacks.

Your DM has to give this shot to you, and you're still going to get shown up by a book legal character that needs no accommodations from the DM.

That depends. Lightning Arrow plus Volley plus Colossus Slayer is quite effective, and I think trumps a lot of other classes. Now, of course, meteor swarm or ice storm is huge AOE damage, but outside the purview of most martial type set-ups.

Also, I'm confused. I though we were talking about the hide in plain sight- take a minute to conceal yourself- ability. If you're talking about the vanish bonus action hide that is a different shot.

Also, High-level rangers are the absolute best at setting up ambush sites. I admit you need your timing down, but combining Pass Without Trace and the Hide in Plain sight gives you a +20 to stealth before mods, which is insanity.

Now, if you want to see low level stuff, we can talk low-level. A level 3 ranger can do 2d8+1d6+mod to a single creature who has been hurt and with the cost of a spell and longbow or longsword as weapon. Beastmaster plays differently of course. I think Rogue gets 3d6+mod which is shortbow or shortsword and 2d6 sneak attack which either requires adjacent ally or advantage.

They seem very comparable at that level. So.... I guess, what should the ranger be the master of? They are a Jack of all trades sort of class and comparable to a lot of the classes who are the best in what they do. They sneak like Rogues, hit like fighters and cast like druids, just not as good as each individual part as each individual class is in specializing.

 

[Shendorion]

We were talking about a variety of ranger abilities being used to set up an ambush, unleash a series of attacks over one turn and disappear, as opposed to any one ranger ability. The goal post had to shift quite a lot for the ranger to deal a load of damage even if all the conditions of the trick were met.