A&A D&D v1.7- feedback requested

[Sadrik]

Here are the slimmed down D&D rules version 1.7. We have done a lot of work on them. There are a couple of areas I am concerned about. Wealth rules have not been perfected and the number of spells per day is highly dependent upon the ability score of the character. Any input is welcome.

Goals
• In Game ease
• Out of game ease
• Compatibility

Thanks for your interest!

Races
• Elf: medium, +2 wis, -2 con, low light vision, sleepless
• Dwarf: medium, +2 con, -2 dex, darkvision, poison resistant, -10 speed
• Halfling: small, +2 dex, -2 str, +1 skill point
• Gnome: small, +2 cha, -2 str, spell like abilities (weak)
• Half orc: medium, +2 str, -2 int, darkvision, +1 skill point, light sensitivity
• Half elf: medium, low light vision, +2 skill points
• Human: medium, +3 skill points

Classes
HP is Hit Points, BAB is Base Attack Bonus, CL is Caster Level, SP is Skill Points.
The commoner class is also used as a level adjustment class.
Class Chart

HP	BAB	CL	SP
Fighter	+8	+1	+.25	+.25
Rogue	+6	+.75	+.25	+.75
Scholar	+4	+.5	+1	+.5
Commoner	+4	+.5	+.25	+.25

Multi Classing
Freely

Skills
Throw out the D&D skill system.
All characters get 6 + INT modifier at 1st level.
DC’s for skill check are simpler: 10 for simple, 15 for easy, 20 for average, 25+ difficult.
Take 20 is the same and take 10 is a feat.
Characters that put 3 skill points in a skill: 15 + ability modifier.
Characters that put 2 skill points in a skill: 10 + ability modifier.
Characters who put 1 skill point in a skill: 5 + ability modifier.

List of Skills
• Athletics: jump, climb, balance, tumble, escape artist, ride, swim, tumble, use rope
• Combat: appraise arms and armor (0 pts: no armor and wizard weapons, 1 pt: light armor and simple weapons, 2 pts: medium armor, martial weapons, 3 pts: heavy armor and exotic weapons)
• Communication: diplomacy, gather info, sense motive, bluff, oratory
• Craftsmanship: architecture, engineering, repair devices, appraise devices, craft, (building, technology, science, machines, constructs)
• Knowledge: decipher script, history, local, nobility, royalty, religions, play instrument, languages, appraise art objects, heal humanoids, profession
• Magic: concentration, arcana, the planes, spellcraft, use magic device, appraise magic items, craft magic items, (occult)
• Perception: spot, listen, search, (smell, taste, feel, sense)
• Presence: intimidate, disguise, sing, act, comedy, (seduce, interrogate)
• Stealth: hide, move silently, (shadow)
• Thievery: open locks, disable traps, sabotage device, forgery, sleight of hand, (poison)
• Wilderness: survival, handle animal, geography, dungeoneering, nature, heal animals, (track, ambush)

Feats
Throw out all feats except for the ones listed below.
First level characters select two feats.
Characters gain additional feats at levels: 5, 9, 13, and 17.
Per 4 class levels means 1-4 you gain the ability, then 5-8 you gain the next step, etc.

General Feats
• Arcane Magic: gain access to bard and wizard spell lists, can know additional spells by paying gold 100 x ((level)^2)
• Divine Magic: gain access to cleric and paladin spell lists, gain a domain ability and can base casting off of INT or CHA
• Finesse Maneuver: make an opposed maneuver check to either trip, or disarm an opponent.
• Finesse: use DEX instead of STR in melee (including adding it to damage)
• Multi Weapon Fighting: use multiple weapons to attack but at -2 to hit per additional weapon
• Natural Ability: +2 to a stat
• Natural Magic: gain access to druid and ranger spell lists and can base casting off of INT, WIS or CHA
• Power Maneuver: make an opposed maneuver check to either overrun, or push an opponent.
• Psionic Magic: gain access to psion and psychic warrior spell lists, memorization is not required and can base casting off of INT or WIS
• Quick Shot: shoot a ranged weapon one step faster but at -2 to hit

Fighter Feats
• Armored Fighting: while in armor DR 1/- per 4 fighter levels, no more DR than armor bonus
• Cleave: when an opponent is dropped gain a bonus attack against a creature within reach, 1 bonus attack per 4 fighter levels
• Combat Tactics: when flanking get +1 damage per 2 fighter levels
• Favored Enemy: +1 to hit and damage and opposed skill checks against one creature type per 4 fighter levels
• Power Attack: take up to -1 BAB per 2 fighter levels to add +1 damage per -1 taken (x0.5 for light weapons, x1.5 for two handed weapons)
• Rage: +1 STR and CON per 2 fighter levels lasts CON mod + 1 round per 4 fighter levels
• Resiliency: no damage from a made CON check to reduce damage, +1 to CON checks per 5 fighter levels
• Shield Expertise: take up to -1 BAB per 2 fighter levels to add +1 AC to a shield per -1 taken (x0.5 for bucklers, x1.5 for heavy shields)
• Toughness: +1 hit point per fighter level
• Weapon Specialization: +1 to hit and damage per 4 fighter levels with 1 weapon type

Rogue Feats
• Attack of Opportunity: make an attack when an opponent does a non-attack, defend or delay action within reach of you do this once per 4 rogue levels
• Evasion: no damage from a made DEX check to reduce damage, +1 to DEX checks for every 5 rogue levels
• Sneak Attack: do +1d6 per 2 rogue levels in melee when opponent is unaware or flat-footed
• Sniper Attack: do +1d6 per 2 rogue levels when opponent is unaware of your ranged attack or flat-footed
• Spring Attack: +5 speed per 4 rogue levels, split your move actions before and after another action
• Unarmored Fighting: +1 to dodge bonus to AC per 2 rogue levels while unarmored
• Wealthy: increase your wealth rating by 1 per 4 rogue levels
• Whirlwind Attack: attack 1 opponent within reach per 3 rogue levels in lieu of attacks
• Merchant: take 10% off of your purchases per 5 rogue levels
•

Scholar Feats
• Familiar: gain access to a familiar or improved familiar per its Scholar level requirement
• Inner Power: gain +1 to spell mod for each level per 6 Scholar levels
• Iron Will: no damage from a made WIS check to reduce damage, +1 to WIS checks for every 5 scholar levels
• Master Crafter: lower the gold and any xp cost of crafting items or magic items by ¼ per 7 Scholar levels
• Meta Magic: increase by 50% duration, size, range or select or select an element that you can change your spells to, apply one to a spell per 5 Scholar levels
• Practiced: select a skill that you can take a 10 without rolling per 5 scholar levels
• School Specialization: gain +1 to spell mod for use in one school and increase the school’s DC by 1 per 10 Scholar levels
• Skill Mastery: gain +5 (can become +20) in a skill per 5 Scholar levels
• Bardic Music: gain 1 bardic song per 3 scholar levels
•

Equipment
Weapons: as normal
Shields: bucklers are simple weapons, light and heavy shields are martial weapons and tower shields are exotic weapons
Armor: no movement penalties, penalties based on encumbrance
Encumbrance: only add: weapons, armor, and gold. All other equipment and gear within reason is considered free weight. Multiply the encumbrance chart by .75 to account for the loss in weight.

Combat
Combat Actions
Characters get 2 Combat Actions per round.
There are no iterative attacks.
• Attack: try to hit an opponent within your reach, if attack is selected twice the second attack is at -5 to hit. If a character has multiple weapons only one additional attack can come from taking the attack action twice.
• Cast: cast a spell, only 1 spell can be completed per round.
• Defend: add ½ your athletics skill to your AC; cannot attack, cast, defend, shoot or maneuver this round.
• Delay: delay your initiative as normal.
• Draw item: ready an accessible item (inaccessible items take 2 actions).
• Load: load a weapon (bows are free actions, heavy crossbows are 2 actions).
• Maneuver: try to do a maneuver within your reach. A maneuver is an opposed roll adding these modifiers: BAB, Size and an appropriate stat. Basic maneuvers are: grab an object within a creature’s grasp, begin a grapple, damage within a grapple, or escape a grapple. Power maneuver and finesse maneuver feats add additional maneuver options.
• Move: move your speed, includes opening doors, standing up, dropping, climbing sneaking, riding, driving
• Ready: ready an action for a particular situation to occur, can be used to negate a spell or shoot action
• Run: move double your speed.
• Shoot: try to hit an opponent within your range, medium range is a disadvantage and long range is an extreme disadvantage, if shoot is selected twice the second attack is at -5 to hit. If a character has multiple weapons only one additional attack can come from taking the shoot action twice.

Combat Modifiers
All skill and stat check modifiers fall under these guidelines as well.

Type				Modifier	Example
Extreme Advantage		+4		cover, prone
Advantage			+2 		flanking, entangled, higher ground, invisible
Disadvantage			-2		difficult environment, medium range
Extreme Disadvantage	-4		long range

Death
Characters can never outright die they just go down. They keep tallying damage. Characters very damaged will require massive amounts of healing to get back on their feat again. If a character is left behind that is down then they die. Or if the player wants their character to die from a situation then they can also die. The DM can also make a character die from being at -10 or more hit points at their discretion.

Attacks of Opportunity
No attacks of opportunity (now a feat)

Savings Throws
Saves are a stat check against the DC (1d20 + ability modifier vs. DC).

Magic
Spells are broken into 3 groups: cleric/paladin, druid/ranger, and bard/wizard.
Spells must be memorized from the spells known list.
Spell DC’s are 10 + INT modifier (no spell level added in).
Damage spells do not destroy items on a failed save.
The total number of spells per day a character can use in each spell level is the character’s INT bonus plus Caster Level chart’s Spell Mod plus the Spells per Day chart’s Spell Mod.
The total number of spells known in each spell level is the character’s spells per day +4.
No spell look ups, players are required to use a 3x5 card for all spells known.

Caster Level chart

Caster Level	Spell Level	Spell Mod
1-2	0-1	+1
3-4	2	+1
5-6	3	+2
7-8	4	+2
9-10	5	+3
11-12	6	+3
13-14	7	+4
15-16	8	+4
17-18	9	+5
19-20	9	+5

Spells per Day chart

Spell Level	Spell Mod
0	-1
1	-2
2	-3
3	-4
4	-5
5	-6
6	-7
7	-8
8	-9
9	-10

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

It sounds like it'd save a lot of time. Good job!

 

[Sadrik]

Thanks, was there anything specific that you liked or disliked about the system? I brought it here to get it critiqued before we play it.

 

[Dragonblade275]

I like the idea of slimming down DnD. Though, I, also, like staying pretty close to the core rules.

Have you read about E6: The Hidden Game inside DnD? If you haven't, you might want to take a look at it.

It could be run with only three classes like you are listing, too. I'd use the three from Unearthed Arcana:

Warrior
Expert
Spellcaster​

the great thing about E6, is that it is compatible with most everything in DnD. The major difference is where the breakpoint occurs where characters become Epic characters. In normal DnD, this occurs at 20th. By then, both the PC's and their enemies are very powerful. However, in E6, the characters become epic at 6th level and then only gain bonus feats.

As you listed compatibility as one of your goals, I strongly suggest E6 as it slims down the game while making the fewest rule changes to the game of any solution that I know of. Changes to most other rules ripple throughout the game and create the necessity to re-write nearly every aspect of the game. But, E6 could be played with only the Three Generic Classes and a good selection of feats.

Good luck and I hope you succeed in your goals of playing a truly slimmed down game. (I did like the idea of making the ability to make attacks of opportunity into a feat, though.)

 

[Andre]

I haven't read it all, but one thing jumped out at me: Take 10 is Scholar-only? Take 10 significantly simplifies play and should be encouraged, not limited to just one class. YMMV, but I would never give up the normal Take 10 rules, especially when trying to streamline the game.

 

[Sadrik]

I haven't read it all, but one thing jumped out at me: Take 10 is Scholar-only? Take 10 significantly simplifies play and should be encouraged, not limited to just one class. YMMV, but I would never give up the normal Take 10 rules, especially when trying to streamline the game.

The take 10 can be taken by anyone, however, you need 1 or more scholar levels to get benefit from it. Also note, the intent of that feat was to allow anyone to take a 10 no matter what the situation.

As far as rules slimming, I thought that the question of when take 10 applies could be removed. Take 10 is a nice little rule. I would rather take it out of regular play though.

 

[Sadrik]

Does everybody understand my spell/magic system?

 

[Li Shenron]

Goals
• In Game ease
• Out of game ease
• Compatibility

Let's check everything against your goals...

Races
• Dwarf: +2 con, -2 dex, Medium, 20 speed, darkvision
• Elf: +2 wis, -2 con, Medium, 30 speed, low-light vision, sleepless
• Gnome: +2 cha, -2 str, Small, 20 speed, low-light vision
• Half-Elf: Medium, 30 speed, lowlight vision, 1 bonus skill point
• Halfling: +2 dex, -2 str, Small, 20 speed, 1 bonus skill point
• Half-Orc: +2 str, -2 int, Medium, 30 speed, darkvision, light sensitivity, 1 bonus skill point
• Human: Medium, 30 speed, 2 bonus skill points

Basically you eliminate lots of small racial features. Each race now only has:

0 or 1 ability tradeoff
Size
Speed
Vision
0 or 1 or 2 bonus skill points

Saves some OOG time at character creation, and lots of IG time (no more checking your racial abilities for tiny bonuses with slings...) -> SUCCESS

Classes
• Fighter: per fighter level gain: +8 Hit Points, +1 Base Attack Bonus, +.25 Caster Level, +.25 Skill Points
• Rogue: per rogue level gain: +6 Hit Points, +.75 Base Attack Bonus, +.25 Caster Level, +.75 Skill Points
• Scholar: per Scholar level gain: +4 Hit Points, +.5 Base Attack Bonus, +1 Caster Level, +.5 Skill Points

Much narrower choice than normal. Also no special class features to check at level up, or if creating a higher level PC. I don't think you really save significant time here, choosing a class is a no-time effort, and class features are not that many. Considering that you are giving up ready-to-use fully-detailed classes and probably players will start spending time thinking about how to still get a ranger out of your system (and now they have to BUILD that class instead of look it up) -> FAILURE

Multi Classing
Freely

No more bothering about the most effective way to avoid the xp penalty, certainly a OOG benefit -> SUCCESS

Skills
Throw out the D&D skill system. All characters get 6 + INT modifier at 1st level.
DC’s for skill check are simpler: 10 for simple, 15 for easy, 20 for average, 25+ difficult. Take 20 is the same and take 10 is a scholar feat.
Characters that put 3 skill points in a skill: 15 + ability modifier.
Characters that put 2 skill points in a skill: 10 + ability modifier.
Characters who put 1 skill point in a skill: 5 + ability modifier.

List of Skills
• Athletics: jump, climb, balance, tumble, escape artist, ride, swim, tumble, use rope
• Combat: appraise arms and armor (0 pts no armor and wizard weapons, 1 pt light armor and simple weapons, 2 pts medium armor, martial weapons, 3 pts heavy armor and exotic weapons)
• Communication: diplomacy, gather info, sense motive, bluff, oratory
• Craftsmanship: architecture, engineering, repair devices, appraise devices, craft, (building, technology, science, machines, constructs)
• Knowledge: decipher script, history, local, nobility, royalty, religions, play instrument, languages, appraise art objects, heal humanoids, profession
• Magic: concentration, arcana, the planes, spellcraft, use magic device, appraise magic items, (occult)
• Perception: spot, listen, search, (smell, taste, feel, sense)
• Presence: intimidate, disguise, sing, act, comedy, (seduce, interrogate)
• Stealth: hide, move silently, (shadow)
• Thievery: open locks, disable traps, sabotage device, forgery, sleight of hand, (poison)
• Wilderness: survival, handle animal, geography, dungeoneering, nature, heal animals, (track, ambush)

I don't like it, but it does make skill selection quicker (OOG) and skill usage almost immediate (IG) since basically it's very much up to the DM to choose the DC -> SUCCESS

Feats
Throw out all feats except for the ones listed below.
First level characters select two feats.
Characters gain additional feats at levels: 5, 9, 13, and 17.
Per 4 class levels means 1-4 you gain the ability, then 5-8 you gain the next step, etc.

List of Feats...

These new feats are really out of whack compared to each other, some are as normal feats, and others grant spellcasting... Each feat potentially more complicated than normal feats. Less feats than normal to choose from, but a much bigger benefit is achieved if you just allow only PHB feats. -> FAILURE

Equipment
Armor: no movement penalties, penalties based on encumbrance
Encumbrance: as normal

Usually Armor category is much simpler than encumbrance, and it actually overrides it, in the sense that if the character has armor most probably you need not bother about calculating encumbrance which is less likely to slow down more. I think you should have considered the opposite choice here -> FAILURE

Combat
No attacks of opportunity (now a fighter feat)

This is obvious, less IG time -> SUCCESS

Savings Throws
1d20 + ability modifier vs. DC

This saves only some minor OOG time if you don't have to consider the 3 base ST, but actually >90% time is spent calculating stacking/nonstacking bonuses from different sources, which you still have in this house rule -> FAILURE

Combat Actions
Characters get 2 Combat Actions per round.
There are no iterative attacks.

These require some time to get used at, but otherwise they are certainly simpler than core rules -> SUCCESS

Combat Modifiers
All skill and stat check modifiers fall under these guidelines as well.

Type				Modifier	Example
Extreme Advantage		+4		cover, prone
Advantage			+2 		flanking, entangled, higher ground, invisible
Disadvantage			-2		difficult environment, medium range
Extreme Disadvantage	-4		long range

This is a huge save of IG time, hands down -> SUCCESS

Magic
Spells are broken into 3 groups: cleric/paladin, druid/ranger, and bard/wizard.
Spells must be memorized from the spells known list.
Spell DC’s are 10 + INT modifier.
Damage spells do not destroy items on a failed save.
The total number of spells per day a character can use is the character’s INT bonus plus CL bonus plus the spells per day chart.
The total number of spells known is the character’s INT bonus plus CL bonus plus the spells know chart.
No spell look ups, players are required to use a 3x5 card for all spells known.

Magic chart...

The time I need to calculate how many spells I know/cast with your system is much more than the time to simply look at the class tables in the PHB, and get the right numbers there (which only need to add the bonus slot for high INT/WIS/CHA) -> FAILURE

 

[Sadrik]

Let's check everything against your goals...

Thanks!

Much narrower choice than normal. Also no special class features to check at level up, or if creating a higher level PC. I don't think you really save significant time here, choosing a class is a no-time effort, and class features are not that many. Considering that you are giving up ready-to-use fully-detailed classes and probably players will start spending time thinking about how to still get a ranger out of your system (and now they have to BUILD that class instead of look it up) -> FAILURE

How can this be a failure? There are only three classes to worry about. So, selection of a class is simply door 1, 2 or 3. I dont think there is a whole lot of worry about how to exactly make a Ranger. Take a couple of rogue levels take a couple of fighter levels. You could even select one level of scholar and take the Natural Magic feat to get some spell casting. Boom, done. Also there are no class special features which dramatically lowers the difficulty level! IMO this is amazingly simpler and streamlined.

Note the caster level is tied to class levels just like skill points and base attack bonus. Every class gets caster level bonus. So the misunderstanding the game has with multiclassing spell casters is eliminated. Much easier than dealing with things like practiced spellcaster and eldritch knights (PrC's) etc.

These new feats are really out of whack compared to each other, some are as normal feats, and others grant spellcasting... Each feat potentially more complicated than normal feats. Less feats than normal to choose from, but a much bigger benefit is achieved if you just allow only PHB feats. -> FAILURE

There are 30 feats. Originally, I had ten for each class but I removed the class distinction and went solely with the per x levels you get more benefits. Are there some feats that do not seem balanced? I want to know.

As far as spellcasting, remember, anybody can get those spell casting feats. They would be akin to a ranger or paladin having spell casting because your overall caster level is based on the classes that you have (chiefly the scholar class). Again, I am interested in balancing the feats better. The feat system here takes the place of feats and class features so I wanted to make them more powerful than feats as a character will receive only 6 over their 20 levels.

Usually Armor category is much simpler than encumbrance, and it actually overrides it, in the sense that if the character has armor most probably you need not bother about calculating encumbrance which is less likely to slow down more. I think you should have considered the opposite choice here -> FAILURE

I think I agree with this. A way to do it that is much simpler but much more arbitrary is to have players take their armor, weapons and their gold weight and look on a chart and see where they are at. This way characters can run around with 100' of rope with no problem... Multiply regular encumbrance charts by .75? Does that seem fair with the above idea?

This saves only some minor OOG time if you don't have to consider the 3 base ST, but actually >90% time is spent calculating stacking/nonstacking bonuses from different sources, which you still have in this house rule -> FAILURE

This is not necessarily for players to have to figure out their saves. Because it is a simple thing that just gets added together on level up. The real real reason for this is during game play players always take a minute to figure out what the DC is for their spell. Using a no-go-up save with a no-(+1-9 bonus) will save in game play time. Because A. the saves are simple enough basically the same as normal and B. the DC will always be the same for every spell they cast (unless they have school specialization).

The time I need to calculate how many spells I know/cast with your system is much more than the time to simply look at the class tables in the PHB, and get the right numbers there (which only need to add the bonus slot for high INT/WIS/CHA) -> FAILURE

So, you think that a 20 level cross referenced chart plus a special stat cross referenced chart both added together is simpler than three single line charts added together?

For ease of reference they are: your caster level bonus plus stat bonus plus spell level bonus. (Note that there is not a special bonus spell chart it uses the standard 16 is +3 etc.)

An example: a caster level 5 character with a 16 would have +2 (CL bonus) +3 (stat) + (spell level: -1 for 0-level, -2 for 1st, etc.) so they would cast 4- 0, 3- 1st, 2- 2nd, and 1- 3rd.

Playing my own devil's advocate: Stats become extremely potent in this system. Moving to an 18 increases the spells per day by 1 across all levels. The regular stat bonus chart does not do this.

 

[Sadrik]

I just updated the first post to the latest version (1.7).

This is a very slimmed down and comprehensive system so it is a little overwhelming to look at all together. So please comment on just the aspect you are particularly interested in or the whole thing if you feel so inclined! Either way any comments are welcome.

I deleted the wealth rules that I was working on with this system because it is not right yet. After I finish updating the system I will add them in. Wealth rules are needed for slimming down the massive accounting that d&d is... With only 4-5 hours of game time. The group does not want to spend 1-2 hours of game time sorting through a big haul. We want to just get on with it.