A Big Hole In The Rules?

[Magic Rub]

Yeah? Well my car is faster than yours. See how helpful and constructive that was?

Hee hee snicker

Thanks K.R.

 

[Magic Rub]

...As for the psionics question, wouldn't the Forsaker view psionics as magic? His power comes from within, not from any outside (magic or divine) source. If he truely views the psion, items, or powers in themselves as magic then he would feel compeled to destroy them.

Actually the Psionic Handbook says...

"Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind’s potential.
A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability
that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals
or perform tasks that nonpsionic characters can only
accomplish—if they’re even capable of doing them at all—by
using gross physical skills such as brute strength or raw
agility, or by using intellect or force of will as distinct from
the natural power of the mind itself.
Your character’s mind is an infinite metaphorical plane, on
which all things are possible. It may be that all characters
have within them the potential for harnessing the energy of
the mind, but only those who succeed in tapping into that
potential can become psionic characters. A psionic character
knows how to navigate the mental pathways that lead to
amazing edifices of thought and energy. Knowing the path,
the psionic character walks it."

And...

"Psionic characters tap the power of the mind and body.
Every sentient creature produces bioenergy that
generates consciousness. This "bioenergy" has many facets.
Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma are direct elements of
consciousness, but Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution also
contribute. Each element of consciousness is like a color split
out of pure white light. The psionic character classes embrace
the total energy of consciousness directly, utilizing this inner
reservoir of power to effect change in the real world. The
thoughts and dreams of normal beings race impotently within
the gray confines of their minds, but a psionic character’s
mental desires are made manifest."

There are a bunch of other quotes but I'm tiered of typing them.The point is that a player can argue, & quite rightfully, that a psionic's powers come from within. Generated by their very own raw power, by their very existence. Not stemming from the manipulation of the "corrupting energies" of out-side forces like the magical weave.
The argument that psionics is "like" magic, is the same as saying Magic is "like" science. Just because you can create an effect that is not something a 'commoner' could do, doesn't mean Magic did it.

"A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks..."

Odds are that a character who is playing some type of Psionas there primary class in my campaign will come across this class & want to take it. FYI - in this campaign setting Psions & Mages generally do not like each other. Though it's more the mages that hate the Psions then the other way around.

Just playing devils advocate here.

 

[Tagore]

Actually the Psionic Handbook says...
...

The argument that psionics is "like" magic, is the same as saying Magic is "like" science. Just because you can create an effect that is not something a 'commoner' could do, doesn't mean Magic did it.

"A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks..."


Just playing devils advocate here.

But magic is like science! That's because it's used intelligence to do it. Anyone who has intelligence, material and will to learn it can make it. It seems all the arguments against the use of pscionic powers by forsakers are correct. Its not a DM decision unless he wants to scrull it up. The idea of a pscionic forsaker is not even broken, but incoherent.
And your first point was that they had forgotten it...

 

[Christian]

I hereby declare that this is the goofiest rules thread I've ever seen.

Yes, the PsiH says all of that. It also says, and I quote, "Psionics are spell-like abilities." End quote. OK?

Yes, there's an optional 'Psionics are different' rule. Frankly, if a DM wants to use an optional rule, it's that DM's job to work through any conflicts between that optional rule and any other optional rules (eg. a PrC from a splatbook) that he or she chooses to include. (Really, the whole PsiH is an optional ruleset.) It is certainly not the job of the designers of the splatbooks to make sure that their optional rules work with the optional rules from every other author. This is explicitly the case under the WotC development methodology for 3rd Edition. Each book is supposed to stand on its own-the only relevant reference material is the Core Rulebooks. That's why feats are repeated between books when they're relevant to both subjects. Et cetera.

As far as the MotW book is concerned, there is no such thing as psionics, as that's not part of the core. If you want to include multiple optional rulesets, you need to think through the consequences-the designers aren't going to do it for you.

I suppose it's too much to ask that the DM think, though.

P.S. Oh, yeah-if the players want to complain about your rules decisions, that's their prerogative. Making the rules decisions is the DM's. They can complain all they want, but it won't change the fact that they'll lose their Forsaker powers if they accept psionic healing.

 

[Magic Rub]

I've given this little rules quandry to the Sage. With any luck they'll be some type of "offical" ruleing against the Psion/Forsaker thang in the next D&D FAQ's.

(Ya ya I know!, those of you who are rolling your eyes, sarcastically thinking "Yippy the Sage", or whatever misc other anti-sage rhetoric.)

 

[Bobbystopholes]

From the SRD:

Psionic Powers (Sp): A psionic creature possesses the indicated number of psionic powers, which it can manifest at will. The power’s level can be no more than the creature’s Hit Dice + 2. Psionic creatures freely manifest their powers but do not need a minimum score in the key ability for a given discipline. They otherwise follow the standard rules for manifesting.

Psionic Attack/Defense Modes (Sp): A psionic creature possesses the indicated number of attack and defense modes from the five of each available. The creature does not pay power points to activate a psionic attack or defense mode but freely manifests it. Psionic creatures otherwise follow all the rules for psionic combat.

Power Resistance (Ex): A psionic creature may have power resistance (PR) as noted for its HD. Power resistance and spell resistance are equally effective against both magic and psionics.

Why ask the sage? You can keep your Power Resistance but no attack modes or psionic powers. Why are you arguing?

 

[Magic Rub]

I hereby declare that this is the goofiest rules thread I've ever seen.

I'm glad you like it.

Yes, the PsiH says all of that. It also says, and I quote, "Psionics are spell-like abilities." End quote. OK?

Yes, there's an optional 'Psionics are different' rule. Frankly, if a DM wants to use an optional rule, it's that DM's job to work through any conflicts between that optional rule and any other optional rules (eg. a PrC from a splatbook) that he or she chooses to include. (Really, the whole PsiH is an optional ruleset.) It is certainly not the job of the designers of the splatbooks to make sure that their optional rules work with the optional rules from every other author. This is explicitly the case under the WotC development methodology for 3rd Edition. Each book is supposed to stand on its own-the only relevant reference material is the Core Rulebooks. That's why feats are repeated between books when they're relevant to both subjects. Et cetera.

As far as the MotW book is concerned, there is no such thing as psionics, as that's not part of the core. If you want to include multiple optional rulesets, you need to think through the consequences-the designers aren't going to do it for you.

"Whoa, settle down Beavis" That's why this board exists. To ask questions, seek advice & opinions, argue your points. Just curios, where was that "Psionics are spell-like abilities." quote taken from (book & page please). I'm not doubting your honesty or that it exists, I just want to be able to show my players when they ask.

I suppose it's too much to ask that the DM think, though.

This last comment was completely uncalled for. Can I make the assumption that you meant this in a far less insulting way than it has come across?

P.S. Oh, yeah-if the players want to complain about your rules decisions, that's their prerogative. Making the rules decisions is the DM's. They can complain all they want, but it won't change the fact that they'll lose their Forsaker powers if they accept psionic healing.

I realise that, My players can complain all they want, I couldn't stop them if I tried.

 

[Magic Rub]

From the SRD:

Psionic Powers (Sp): A psionic creature possesses the indicated number of psionic powers, which it can manifest at will. The power’s level can be no more than the creature’s Hit Dice + 2. Psionic creatures freely manifest their powers but do not need a minimum score in the key ability for a given discipline. They otherwise follow the standard rules for manifesting.

Psionic Attack/Defense Modes (Sp): A psionic creature possesses the indicated number of attack and defense modes from the five of each available. The creature does not pay power points to activate a psionic attack or defense mode but freely manifests it. Psionic creatures otherwise follow all the rules for psionic combat.

Power Resistance (Ex): A psionic creature may have power resistance (PR) as noted for its HD. Power resistance and spell resistance are equally effective against both magic and psionics.

Why ask the sage? You can keep your Power Resistance but no attack modes or psionic powers. Why are you arguing?

That's exactly what I wanted to see, Thanks! I can't believe I couln't find that.

 

[Bobbystopholes]

It took me a while. It's in the psionic creatures section. You would think it would be right on the powers in the class section. It might in the handbook, I don't have that handy, though.

 

[Magic Rub]

Just curios, where was that "Psionics are spell-like abilities." quote taken from (book & page please). I'm not doubting your honesty or that it exists, I just want to be able to show my players when they ask.

Finally found it, never mind it's on Pg 35 of the PsiHB under concentration.