A Cantrip That Does Fireball Damage?!?!?

[Rossbert]

It can be good, but is so situational it is generally not useful for the full casters and really only usable for the EK, like you said.

First thing is that to have an effect on 8 targets, you need to be surrounded this isn't the worst thing in the world, but still generally not ideal. On top of that you probably have a higher (possibly by a lot) attack bonus compared to your spell DC, and swarm type monsters that are likely to surround you often have fairly decent dexterity, so the prospect of getting all 8 to fail is unlikely. 8d6 damage from a cantrip without the level boosts is pretty high, but it could almost as easily be 0d6 depending on saves, when perhaps a basic attack (especially if you have the cleave part of GWM) may have ended up a better bet as far as accuracy goes and potentially needing the extra damage to put a target (or two) down, assuming a weapon with 1d8 or better damage.

For comparison, in a similar ideal situation (spell area full of targets) the 1st level spell Thunderwave can do up to 18d8 damage with a push and has a minimum of 9d8. Which in fairness, does require a spell slot.

So in short, can be powerful but is so situational to not really be broken. If such a scenario happens to come up it gets to shine, which is good, everything should have its moment.

 

[CapnZapp]

I can almost guarantee that you could go your entire adventuring career with Sword Burst and never actually hit, or even target, 8 enemies with it.

I absolutely agree.

 

[jaelis]

I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing, so I'll just address the applicable posters above:

I am well aware that a Fireball would do 64d6 to the 8 goblins... BUT, if the EK drops a Fireball on the 8 goblins surrounding him, then he takes Fireball damage too. Not to mention that he just expended a 3rd level spell slot, a significant resource. Sword Burst is a freakin' cantrip! At-will, no resource, eat ghost blades and suck it goblin scum...

IMX, it is actually quite a bit more likely to be able to drop a fireball on 8 targets that are not surrounding you. You are less likely to take damage from the goblin attacks that way too.

I get your point that in the right conditions it is a very powerful cantrip. If you think it is too much, we can discuss that. Comparing it in an irrational way to fireball, though, does not seem very useful.

FWIW, there is another similar cantrip, thunder clap. So sword burst is not unique in this way.

For a better comparision, thunderwave is a first level spell with a similar (but more convenient) area of effect, significantly more damage, and a nice push effect. Burning hands is similar Would you complain about these spells because you can target three creatures and do "fireball damage"?

 

[CapnZapp]

Yes, we get that, but to compare like for like you would have to have your fireball hit 8 targets therefor doing 64d6 damage.

So while SB is a hugely powerful cantrip, in the right situation, it still doesn't compare to fireball.

Unless you compare a third level spell cast at a single foe against a cantrip cast at eight adjacent foes!

 

[Rossbert]

FWIW, there is another similar cantrip, thunder clap. So sword burst is not unique in this way.

For a better comparision, thunderwave is a first level spell with a larger (and more convenient) area of effect, significantly more damage, and a nice push effect. Burning hands is similar Would you complain about these spells because you can target three creatures and do "fireball damage"?

I mentioned the thunderwave idea, but good catch on thunderclap.

I even think thunderclap is a better spell much of the time because of my general belief (I have not checked the MM) that swarming monsters will have a higher DEX save than CON, and that thunder damage is not resisted enough for force damage to be particular more valuable, though I am sure there must a couple situations that it would be.

 

[Dausuul]

I love how you say "FIREBALL DAMAGE!" and then in your footnotes you acknowledge that it is in fact dealing one-eighth of fireball damage.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing, so I'll just address the applicable posters above:

I am well aware that a Fireball would do 64d6 to the 8 goblins... BUT, if the EK drops a Fireball on the 8 goblins surrounding him, then he takes Fireball damage too. Not to mention that he just expended a 3rd level spell slot, a significant resource. Sword Burst is a freakin' cantrip! At-will, no resource, eat ghost blades and suck it goblin scum...

. . . which they can do for several rounds, during which the caster is surrounded and in the middle of a brutal mob stabbing.
Hence why the EK's weapon attacks are a better bet generally because they deal considerably more damage (probably over double), and each goblin killed is one less return attack on their turn.

 

[Rossbert]

. . . which they can do for several rounds, during which the caster is surrounded and in the middle of a brutal mob stabbing.
Hence why the EK's weapon attacks are a better bet generally because they deal considerably more damage (probably over double), and each goblin killed is one less return attack on their turn.

I will say though that the OP is right to an extent. In the perfect situation (a swarm of low HP low save monsters) sword burst (or thunderclap) is a fantastic spell that can clear a huge swath through them and feel awesome. It is just a mook clearing spell but will let you feel like you are in a classic Kung-fu movie.

 

[Syntallah]

IMX, it is actually quite a bit more likely to be able to drop a fireball on 8 targets that are not surrounding you. You are less likely to take damage from the goblin attacks that way too.

I get your point that in the right conditions it is a very powerful cantrip. If you think it is too much, we can discuss that. Comparing it in an irrational way to fireball, though, does not seem very useful.

FWIW, there is another similar cantrip, thunder clap. So sword burst is not unique in this way.

For a better comparision, thunderwave is a first level spell with a similar (but more convenient) area of effect, significantly more damage, and a nice push effect. Burning hands is similar Would you complain about these spells because you can target three creatures and do "fireball damage"?

I guess I wasn't aware I was being irrational. I was comparing 8d6 damage from a cantrip to 8d6 damage from a 3rd level spell. And since that is the crux of my beef (at-will cantrip doing damage equal to a 3rd level spell slot), I thought is was fitting.

I have the same beef against Thunderclap that I do against Sword Burst, for the same reasons.

As I mentioned, Thunderwave and Burning Hands using spell slots are much more palatable than an at-will cantrip throwing that kind of damage around...

 

[Syntallah]

I love how you say "FIREBALL DAMAGE!" and then in your footnotes you acknowledge that it is in fact dealing one-eighth of fireball damage.

Wow, you really showed me, thanks for contributing to the conversation. I have had the utmost respect for you Dasuul. I make a habit of looking at posts you have contributed to as you have some very insightful thoughts. Quite disappointed in this one.