A Cantrip That Does Fireball Damage?!?!?

[Dausuul]

I even think thunderclap is a better spell much of the time because of my general belief (I have not checked the MM) that swarming monsters will have a higher DEX save than CON

Monsters in the CR 0 to 1/2 range average slightly better on Con save than Dex; the difference is a bit over half a point, not much, but it favors Con. At higher levels, the difference becomes much more dramatic. (I only have data for Basic Rules monsters right now, but I would not expect the full MM to change much.)

Targeting Con save is never a good thing for a spell.

and that thunder damage is not resisted enough for force damage to be particular more valuable, though I am sure there must a couple situations that it would be.

This is basically correct; thunder is slightly more-resisted, but the difference is not enough to worry about. Still, to the extent there is a difference, it favors force.

The gap is not large, but sword burst is the superior spell. (To me, the biggest knock on thunderclap has nothing to do with its damage-dealing ability; it's the fact that it announces your presence to everything in a 100-foot radius.)

 

[Rossbert]

I guess I wasn't aware I was being irrational. I was comparing 8d6 damage from a cantrip to 8d6 damage from a 3rd level spell. And since that is the crux of my beef (at-will cantrip doing damage equal to a 3rd level spell slot), I thought is was fitting.

I have the same beef against Thunderclap that I do against Sword Burst, for the same reasons.

As I mentioned, Thunderwave and Burning Hands using spell slots are much more palatable than an at-will cantrip throwing that kind of damage around...

It isn't completely unreasonable but as mentioned I tend to never pick it.

I just haven't ever been surrounded in a way to make it better than a utility cantrip (Mage hand, prestidigitation, minor illusion), a source of easy ranged damage (generally chill touch, frostbite or firebolt depending on character feel), or if I need a melee cantrip I pick shocking grasp for non-martial types to get away or one of the blade spells for a weapon user (I like booming blade on a mobile character, and green flame otherwise, the damage works out because I rarely have more than one or two enemies adjacent a time.)

Darn goblins keep spreading out and using bows, tricky brighters.

 

[cmad1977]

Not an issue.

 

[Rossbert]

Monsters in the CR 0 to 1/2 range average slightly better on Con save than Dex; the difference is a bit over half a point, not much, but it favors Con. At higher levels, the difference becomes much more dramatic. (I only have data for Basic Rules monsters right now, but I would not expect the full MM to change much.)

Targeting Con save is never a good thing for a spell.


This is basically correct; thunder is slightly more-resisted, but the difference is not enough to worry about. Still, to the extent there is a difference, it favors force.

The gap is not large, but sword burst is the superior spell. (To me, the biggest knock on thunderclap has nothing to do with its damage-dealing ability; it's the fact that it announces your presence to everything in a 100-foot radius.)

I am willing to be corrected, especially not having data. Swarms of X just viscerally felt high Dex to me. But I do not read entrails and should not base arguments on viscera.

 

[jaelis]

As I mentioned, Thunderwave and Burning Hands using spell slots are much more palatable than an at-will cantrip throwing that kind of damage around...

Sure but how can it be reasonable for a first level spell to do so much more damage than a third level spell? Thuderwave could affect 9 creatures, that is 18d8!

 

[akr71]

I would also submit that if a player's Tank strategy is to wade into a throng of foes and use their action to do 1d6 damage to as many as 8 opponents while the rest of the party hangs back and hits with ranged attacks is a player that is going to be rolling a new character before too long.

If we use the goblin example & use averages, the third level EK will do 3.5 points of damage. The goblins will roll 12.5 for their saving throws, which is likely a fail, so they take full damage - all 8 of them are down to 3.5HP. They attack - lets assume the EK has AC 16, which give each goblin a 45% chance to hit for an average of 5.5 damage per hit. That works out to 19.8 damage average - now its been a loooong time since I've had to work out statistical and average damage, so maybe my math is wrong... but Ouch - the EK is now in the single digits for HP
-or-
Unless you are still fighting swarms of rats or other relatively mindless creatures at level 3 (minimum for being an EK), some of those throngs of foes should be bypassing the EK and heading for the rest of the party.

Now, I've never played an Eldritch Knight or had a player play one when I DM, but aren't they limited to Abjuration & Evocation spells only? Isn't Sword Burst a conjuration spell?

 

[Dausuul]

Wow, you really showed me, thanks for contributing to the conversation. I have had the utmost respect for you Dasuul. I make a habit of looking at posts you have contributed to as you have some very insightful thoughts. Quite disappointed in this one.

Well, I was going to point out that fireball deals eight times the damage of sword burst, and then I saw you'd done it for me, so what was there to add? A footnote that says, in effect, "I realize this post is completely wrong, but here are some very small factors that make it a tiny bit less wrong" does not in fact strengthen your point.

Sword burst is not a bad spell. For a melee caster, it's a decent anti-swarm option (though I am not a big fan of highly situational cantrips). It is nowhere close to fireball, however.

 

[Dausuul]

I am willing to be corrected, especially not having data. Swarms of X just viscerally felt high Dex to me. But I do not read entrails and should not base arguments on viscera.

If I were put in charge of rewriting the Monster Manual, you'd be right: Weenies should have weak Con saves and (relatively) good Dex saves. I don't like having such a clear hierarchy among saving throws. But so it goes.

At some point soon, I'll probably put up an analysis of saving throws the way I did for damage types. Unfortunately, D&D Beyond doesn't let you filter on saving throw bonus (you can filter on saving throw proficiency, but that isn't very useful), so there's a lot more spadework involved in putting together the data. I was able to scrape stats for Basic Rules monsters off an SRD site, but for the rest of the Monster Manual and Volo's, I may have to enter it by hand.

 

[Rossbert]

Sure but how can it be reasonable for a first level spell to do so much more damage than a third level spell? Thuderwave could affect 9 creatures, that is 18d8!

To be pedantic, depending on how your particular group counts diagonals, a single fireball could hit around 44 creatures which could mean as much 352d6 damage total if there is a creature in every square of the area of effect and they all fail their save. Obviously an unlikely situation, but possible.

Your results may vary depending how you determine circles on a grid.

 

[Rossbert]

If I were put in charge of rewriting the Monster Manual, you'd be right: Weenies should have weak Con saves and (relatively) good Dex saves. I don't like having such a clear hierarchy among saving throws. But so it goes.

At some point soon, I'll probably put up an analysis of saving throws the way I did for damage types. Unfortunately, D&D Beyond doesn't let you filter on saving throw bonus (you can filter on saving throw proficiency, but that isn't very useful), so there's a lot more spadework involved in putting together the data. I was able to scrape stats for Basic Rules monsters off an SRD site, but for the rest of the Monster Manual and Volo's, I may have to enter it by hand.

While that is nice, and a helpful tool for many, I try to limit my knowledge of things I don't NEED as a player, mostly to limit meta gaming and reduce the amount of obnoxious number crunching my brain would do. I like to think I wouldn't bring in too much DMG or MM research in as a character but realistically I don't think I can cordon off that well, so I only ever look up what I NEED for monster, class or item design.

Do not think I am in any way disparaging your excellent work and the time and effort you put in to your accumulated data.