D&D 5E A different take on Alignment

Status
Not open for further replies.
An anarchist society will be abused by definition aka default. If you introduce rules on how anarchic you may be at maximum then you introduce lawful. A lawful society will not prevent abuse by the strong by default, but might have much more safeguarding processes against it (working legislative judicative and executive e.g.)



I always smile at people thinking "anarcho-socialism" something even classifying in working outside a fanatasy realm
First someone gotta pay for the fun, or you cannot be social withi nsociety
Second, think a minute about what implications anarchy being acceptable behaviour might have, e.g.: Yo go to the doctor with some life threatening injury, but the doctor is on the anarchic side today, and rather plays golf in the reception hall than treating his patients.
You have a very superficial understanding of what philosophical or political anarchy actually are, but I can’t really get into it without discussing politics.

If you want to argue about political philosophies, I’m sure someone on Twitter would love to oblige you.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I think in the old Law vs Chaos system, the meaning was...are you with civilization or are you with those who oppose civilization. In ACKS, the evil humanoids are all lumped under the title beastmen. They oppose civilization. The PC races are opposed to them and are defending/expanding civilization. Whether a person beats his wife has nothing to do with alignment in that system. It's more about whose side you are on in the great cosmic struggle. Neutral are people who really don't care about either side and serve their own interests.
 

That’s it!

replace the alignment system with the “Star Trek Captain” system.
There's a meme for that
zk0oyvui0ty51.jpg
 

...
So a person who believe the world works like a kingdom with the Gods acting as a Congress can't be Lawful?

And a personal code prevents you from being Chaotic? So, if I had a code that was something like "Never eat Fish on Friday. Never resheath your sword without killing someone. Always bow when you walk past a church. Always pay back insult with injury." Then they would be a Lawful individual?

Your arguments on this are getting more nonsensical and repetitive. In spite of your repeated assertions, where someone lives has little or nothing to do with their own personal view of how the world works. If someone has a personal code, is that a code that they think should be applied to others? Do they think the code arise from natural laws of the universe or is it a code that they determined for themselves for personal reasons or because they admire the tenets? I had a chaotic barbarian who had a code of honesty, but it was his code because he viewed people who lied as weak.

Besides, people are far messier than a simple alignment chart. Just like just about everything else in D&D.

Don't like alignment? Don't use it. But this has nothing to do with the OP.
 

These are the same debates we were having back in 81 with my D&D group. Including cultural relativism and ethnocentricity. It will never be "solved" except at each individual gaming table. That is why alignments are being removed from the game. It was a contentious system to begin with.
 
Last edited:

I've seen games (King of Dungeons is one) that replace conventional alignments with ideals like Civilization, Nature, Wealth, Conquest, etc. That's a fun angle.
 

Lawful has nothing to do with following the law.

A Lawful PC is disciplined and respects honor, family, order and tradition.

Anakin Skywalker for example was not Lawful. He was Chaotic. Eddard Stark OTOH, was Lawful.

For a character who is Neutral with respect to Chaos/ Law look at Peter Parker/ Spiderman.

You will find correlation often between [a Lawful person] and [a Law abiding person], however the latter is not a precondition for the former. Many vigilante characters like Batman or the Punisher are highly Lawful, being disciplined, honorable and valuing order and tradition, despising chaos, and desiring order above all else, yet they work outside of the law, breaking it often.

However, by this definition, you have just said that devils respect Honor, Family and Tradition. I'll grant you Order, but the rest of those? No. Or how about a character like Judge Dredd, the famous example of Lawful Neutral, are we really saying that the brutal police state of Judge Dredd is one that respects Family and Honor over say... brutal enforcement of the Laws?

Again, I think this highlights the issue, we can never seem to find a definition that isn't going to be full of exceptions and stretches. "Lawful" encompasses too many different facets to make sense.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If they are only doing it because they are ordered to and not because it's their nature, then even if they enjoy it they are not chaotic. Chaotic evil people aren't going to care if they are ordered to or not, they will do it anyway and get shot by the Don.

So, to be a chaotic person you have to do things whether you are told to or not?

Therefore we could say a Modron that is born and because of its nature begins doing its tasks whether or not they were told to, is Chaotic? Because they are following their nature? We both know that isn't true, Modron are Lawful, them following their nature means they are going to be doing Lawful things... So, if following your nature when you are lawful is lawful, and following your nature when chaotic is chaotic... then we've got a tautology. They are because they are, and that doesn't help us figure out how to define them unless they are already defined.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I wouldn't say less charismatic, especially with all the ways Charisma is used in the game, but less socially effective, yes. That's because being lawful is about working within groups and forming group cohesion and consensus whereas being chaotic is ultimately about eschewing all that. At least that's my take. Also, I'm not at all familiar with the characters you mentioned except Sparrow, and I can't remember enough of what he did in those movies to assign a particular alignment to him.

Going with a Dsiney example, I would say that the Sultan is much more Lawful than Aladdin, but Aladdin is far far more charismatic. As is Jafar, who is also not Lawful.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



My take on alignment is different still:

Deeply examined, high resolution Alignment is actively unhelpful at facilitating functional play where characters can emerge and evolve through play.

What helps functional play where characters emerge and evolve through play?

1) State something pithy about a character (a principle, an orientation toward a person or place):

“x’s bold, recklessness is likely to get them into trouble and I’ll have to get them out if it.”

“I will endanger myself to protect innocents.”

2) GM frames conflicts with adversaries and obstacles to test these ideas. Maybe they’re true. Maybe they’re not. Maybe x’s bold, recklessness allows them to protect an innocent and the PC reorients themselves after that. Maybe x’s bold, recklessness endangers innocents and the PC has to choose between helping their friend and protecting an innocent.

etc.

That works to produce ease-of-play with interesting characters in a way that “finished product PCs straight-jacketed by granular ethos” does not. And it doesn’t spark 40 years of meta examination and interrogation (both internally for the players and externally where a GM/other player objects to the output of a decision-point and acrimony ensues).

Exactly this. Phrases like bonds and flaws are so much more useful for roleplaying. I've had so much more success with these sort of things than trying to do anything with the current alignment system.
 

@EzekielRaiden

I am familiar with debates in moral philosophy. I work as an academic philosopher and lawyer.

It's not correct to say (or imply) that truth, beauty and life are values only on a consequentialist account: they are values for nearly all theories of value. That was my point, that Gygax's definition of good includes all the main values of typical moral outlooks: Benthamite greatest good of the greatest number; human (or, as he put it, creature) rights; truth, beauty and life; self-actualisation.

If you want a game in which debates about which moral theory is really correct, then D&D's alignment system is pointless and will do nothing but get in your way, because player X will assert that such-and-such is good while player Y will disagree.

But if you are happy to put those debates to one side - which mostly means letting all the participants follow their moral common sense - then the alignment system can frame an interesting question, namely, about the relationship of particular means (ie law and chaos) to the ends of good.

This is what elves and dwarves (for instance): elves think that the dwarven penchant for tight-knit communities and rather rigid social hierarchies is a threat to the good, because of the tendency of such social arrangements to lead to the powerful pursuing their own selfish ends (and perhaps, also, those at the bottom feeling resentment and hence also pursuing selfish rather than good ends); whereas dwarves think that the lack of social organisation in elvish communities means that individuals do not get the support and social structure they need to achieve their own wellbeing and help bring about the wellbeing of others.

This actually makes sense of alignment conflict; whereas a mere preference for tight or loose social organisation does not, because the conflict can be entirely avoided by those of each preference just forming their own distinct communities! (This is also why Planescape doesn't make sense. Why should those in the Seven Heavens be bothered by those in Olympus, if they're all living well each in accordance with their preferred social arrangements?)

Now suppose a GM has read (let's say) Durkheim on Suicide, and has decided that the dwarves are right and the elves are wrong because loose social organisation leads to anomie and hence serious and widespread unhappiness. That would be an example of what I posted above, of "a particular game or campaign setting or whatever is set up so that this question about means is already answered". In that case, as I posted, alignment once again becomes pointless.

But just as, in FRPGing, we suspend other ordinary causal judgements, so I think it makes sense to suppose that we can suspend our ordinary judgements of social causation and hold the means-end question open. Which is quite different from a game that invites us to suspend our ordinary moral judgements and pretend that bad people are good. (That can also be done, but is quite a different and I think more demanding request for a game to make.)

I think a lot of discussion about alignment suffers from trying to relate alignment to questions in moral philosophy - which is absolutely hopeless, as is shown by the fact that no serious philosopher has ever used or taken up Gygax's categories - rather than asking what can alignment bring to the play of the game. The idea that it can be used to foreground a dispute about means to the end of goodness (understood quite capaciously, as I've said) is an attempt to answer that particular question.

I think the issue though is that DnD has a tendency to skew. If you take the "alignmentexarchs" or whatever they are called. Modrons tend to be safer and more "good" than Slaadi. There is a tendency to present Law as Good. And even your Elves, well, most version of Elves I have seen have societies with social structures. In fact, they tend to be even more unified than the dwarves, because the Dwarves have conflict between the clans, while the elves are almost always one or two nations.

Which leads to them both being nominally Lawful.
 


Your arguments on this are getting more nonsensical and repetitive. In spite of your repeated assertions, where someone lives has little or nothing to do with their own personal view of how the world works. If someone has a personal code, is that a code that they think should be applied to others? Do they think the code arise from natural laws of the universe or is it a code that they determined for themselves for personal reasons or because they admire the tenets? I had a chaotic barbarian who had a code of honesty, but it was his code because he viewed people who lied as weak.

Besides, people are far messier than a simple alignment chart. Just like just about everything else in D&D.

Don't like alignment? Don't use it. But this has nothing to do with the OP.

Nobody is talking about the OP anymore, so I don't exactly feel like that is a criticism in anyway, unless you think your use of a Star Trek alignment chart has anything to do with dividing the alignment system into two compass axi's.

In fact, trying to define Lawful would be more on topic to the OP, since that is a neccessary step of making that compass point. So, thanks for telling me that I have nothing to do with the O{, when I'm closer than you.


Moving on to substantive claims, I agree that people are messier than alignment charts, that's why I think any attempt to define alignment is ultimately going to run into too many issues to be useful.

As to your questions, let us take the Githzerai in Limbo for a second. They live a highly structured life with a strict code. Do they think that code should be applied to Elves in the Material world? Why does that matter? Are you only lawful is you feel your code needs to be enforced on others?

You ask if they believe the code arises from the world, but again... why does that matter. Are they chaotic because they know that they must impose their order upon their homes in Limbo?


You seem to think that adopting a strict personal code, because you have personal reasons for that code is not a lawful act. And yet, Batman was presented as one poster up above as being highly lawful, and his personal code is entirely for personal reasons. To hold himself back from the edge of the Abyss. Why is your barbarian's code less lawful just because he chose it instead of because he thought that honesty is a law of the universe that needs to be followed?
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top