A Dozen Crossbows Aimed at You ..

Should high level PCs be able to escape / not die when aimed at with DOZEN crossbows?

  • PCs prevail. Level 15 > N*Level 2. N is any number.

    Votes: 148 60.2%
  • PCs die or are detained. There should be a rule to reflect this.

    Votes: 54 22.0%
  • Mandatory third option.

    Votes: 44 17.9%

I chose the third option.

The armor the PCs are wearing by that level is all but able to reach out and deflect the bolts on its own. :p

By 15th level the PCs are legendary beings. Herecles would likely be around this level, I think, +/- 5 levels.

A 15th level PC's armor will likely stop most of the shots from harming the PC. Those that do hit likely will be slowed enough by the armor not to penetrate all that far - thus dealing less damage in most cases (excluding the all but certain 1 natural 20 critical that is likely to result out of so many shots).

On the other hand, the guard should have a chance of getting in a lucky shot. I think that the W/VP system better describes this likelihood than the typical hp system. Then there is the fact that 12 guards vs 4 PCs - at least one of which likely is a magic user and able to kill most of the guards with a single strike. Consider a 20 ft wide street and the 12 guards likely loosely arranged in said street in front of the PCs. A single fire ball will not only kill most of the guards - it will probably start a couple fires on either side of the street, allowing for a distraction that may allow the PCs to leave even if reinforcements arrive.

Now, if 100 guards were sent after the PCs - lining roof tops and walls, using bows (so as to get off more than one shot per round), most around 5th level +/- 1 level, all being Fighters or Rangers (archery type), then - I think - the guards have a chance. Were I arranging such a situation, I would have twice as many guards as there are PCs face the PCs directly - approaching them from at least 3-4 sides, possibly with +1 magic weapons, certainly at least 3rd level and likely 4th or 5th - with their commander being perhaps 6th or 7th level. I'm presuming a major city /metropolis, and these guards would likely be the equivalent of the entire special ops corp. There would have ~20x as many guards as there are PCs (mostly 1st and 2nd level) arranged on walls, roofs, etc - taking aim just as the guards approached so as to have readied an action in case the PCs attacked so as to get their attack off first - maybe. They would perhaps have pre-determined targets, and there would be enough of them that at least one would likely roll a critical that first round.

Yet, even in this situation there is little chance of victory. More likely the result will be a slaughter, but the PCs will almost certainly take a significant hit or two each - and if you are using W/VP then perhaps - perhaps - you might come close to killing one of the PCs. If the PCs resisted and fought, this can be added to their record of crimes, and (further?) infamy will be added to their names. If they chose surrender after seeing how seriously the city is prepared to deal with them, then perhaps this will work in thier favor.

As a final note, the PCs would have had to have done something truly terrible for the city to set up such a situation. By this time they are legendary beings. Just walking through the city might end up as a bit of a parade - people lining the streets to see them, etc. How would a middle ages city have responded to the visit of a merchant prince or king or arch-bishop? If King Arthur had truly existed, how would a middle ages London have reacted to his revival and riding through London?

The PCs will not be treated lightly by the city. If the city has reason to believe the PCs have committed some atrocity, it will either send overwhelming forces or a small force - dependent on whether it has any reason to believe that PCs might resist. If the PCs are typically viewed as 'Good' then the force may be small, while if they are viewed as 'Evil' the force will likely be virtually every able bodied man able to wield a weapon, hear thunder, and see lightning - as the old phrase goes. Or the PCs will be 'ignored' but 'encouraged' to leave the city. If they do not leave, the city will likely send out runners to find equivalent level adventurers elsewhere - promising a reward for dealing with the PCs. The city may have to deal with the PCs for several weeks, but it will likely lose fewer citizens and guards to them than it would if directly defying such powerful beings.
 

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Nyeshet said:
Now, if 100 guards were sent after the PCs - lining roof tops and walls, using bows (so as to get off more than one shot per round), most around 5th level +/- 1 level, all being Fighters or Rangers (archery type), then - I think - the guards have a chance. Were I arranging such a situation, I would have twice as many guards as there are PCs face the PCs directly - approaching them from at least 3-4 sides, possibly with +1 magic weapons, certainly at least 3rd level and likely 4th or 5th - with their commander being perhaps 6th or 7th level. I'm presuming a major city /metropolis, and these guards would likely be the equivalent of the entire special ops corp. There would have ~20x as many guards as there are PCs (mostly 1st and 2nd level) arranged on walls, roofs, etc - taking aim just as the guards approached so as to have readied an action in case the PCs attacked so as to get their attack off first - maybe. They would perhaps have pre-determined targets, and there would be enough of them that at least one would likely roll a critical that first round.

Again, contigency dimension door + quickened fly + cloudkill is an almost instant win for a wizard. All of the first to third levels are killed outright, the fourth and fifths either die or take con damage, and the commander probably takes con damage as well. And the wizard hasn't even used his highest level spells. A more prudent wizard might use prismatic wall instead of cloudkill on his first round, since he'd then be in no danger from ranged weapons, and could kill the guards at his leisure.

Or, you know, he could just contigency teleport back to base, taking his buddies with him. At level 15, the group should have some sort of heavily fortified home base.
 

At that point in the game you're an uber-anime character. So the best way to run that scenario is:

A) Run it like a japanese-anime scene. The players have Matrix-like abilities at that point and most likely would get free using all their cool tricks and powers. At that point in the game, if someone REALLY wanted the PCs caught then they'd hire the services of much more powerful people. Now a dozen 10th-level Fighter crossbowmen, that's something to watch out for.

B) Hope for the best with your players. If you're running a low-RP group, the crossbowmen are screwed. If a high-RP group then they might or might not be screwed (depends on the group's overall alignment)

C) The players won't have to fight. By that point, a high Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate will make those guards think twice and you'll most likely be free.

I've had a group of 10th-levels defeat an army of a little over 100 goblins, complete with ranged specialists, spellcasters (adepts), lieutenants and champions, and the typical warriors. They won and they had fun doing it so does it matter?
 

delericho said:
The thing that bugs me most about the situation is the unspoken assumption that the guards somehow just popped up, and were able to surround the PCs, crossbows levelled, without the PCs having opportunity to do anything about it.

It's not an unspoken assumption - the situation is spelled out quite clearly.

Where were the Spot and Listen checks? What were the PCs' actions while the guards were moving into position.

Maybe the PCs were drinking in a tavern and not in a dungeon crawling mode. The guards were waiting outside for the PCs to come out.
 


VirgilCaine said:
Personally, I find the scenario to be flawed. 15th level PCs would not be surrounded by average guards. That's sadism on the part of the city's rulers. You don't get to 15th level without getting a reputation...be as a champion of good, a dependable mercenary and troubleshooter or as a scourge of evil (or a scourge of virgins).

Believe me, players' skills don't always grow in pace with their characters.
 

tough call ... I'd give each crossbowman a bonus (or remove the dex bonus from PCs) if it was a "freeze, or I'll shoot!" situation.

otherwise, I'd have to remind myself of the heroicness of the PCs and how much magic armor and magic could play in this situation (eek, what about a 15th lvl monk!)
 

Razz said:
At that point in the game you're an uber-anime character.
"What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge crossbow bolts?"

"No, I'm trying to tell you that when you're fifteenth level, you won't have to."
 

Henry said:
If you really want to have this happen in a game of D&D without changing the rules dramatically, offer a story award of 100/1000/whatever Experience Points, and treat the guards as having access to an automatic Coup de Grace attempt on the PCs if they move to resist. In other words, it's like the Hero Point mechanic from Mutants and Masterminds, where in exchange for a contrived plot situation, the PCs get a reward. If they think they can beat the Coup de Grace, let them; if they don't want to chance it, just as in real life, then they do what the guards say.

If it's not that important an event, let the dice fall where they may as usual. :)

I've seen several folks come up with 'coup de grace' rule as being the answer. Now maybe giving one free round of ranged coup de grace to dozen ready crossbow men versus unready PCs might be a threat, but in my experience, coup de grace in a one on one situation can be useless if the victim is higher level than the attacker.

It becomes a matter of the attacker's max damage is not capable of killing the victim's high amount of HP.

at 15th level, a fighter has 10+5.5*14 hit points (statistical average, no con bonus). That's 87 hit points. A heavy crossbow does 1d10 damage, double for crits. Max damage then is 20 damage. That's a drop in the bucket.

Oddly enough, none of this is the real problem with the situation. From a storytelling standpoint, the hero suceeds when the story demands it, and the hero fails when the story demands it. Wolverine heals at the speed of plot. The USS Enterprise travels at the speed of plot. In an RPG, one risks railroading if the DM has the ability to force PCs into doing something simply by surrounding them with bad guys (because as DM, he can spontaneously spawn a dozen guardsmen anytime he wants). In fact, the biggest railroad mistake is when the adventure says, "the PCs will be surrounded and captured by a dozen guardsmen."

Now, Henry is onto something. If the DM is given the latitude for a "railroad moment to advance the story" and the PCs are given something in return ("get out of jail" card), it'll all work out, and a possibly interesting story can be told, and players can be reassurred that they are not being permanently screwed over.

The point is, GMs would like to have moments where they can say, "you get captured, or whatever" because realistically and storywise it makes sense. Players are on the other hand, keen on not having anything bad happen to them, so resist such attempts, and really hate it when it seems that they can't even try to succeed.
 

The Shaman said:
"What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge crossbow bolts?"

"No, I'm trying to tell you that when you're fifteenth level, you won't have to."

The Shaman wins teh thread :lol:
 

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