Lord Mhoram
Hero
Holy Bovine said:
I wanted the players to go for feats than ability increases.
A Feat progression poll
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
I wanted the players to go for feats than ability increases.
sniffles
First Post
I chose the 'standard feat advancement, no variations' option, but that's not entirely correct.
I play in 5 different D&D campaigns currently, run by 5 different GMs. Two of them have standard feat advancement, no variations. Two of them have standard feat advancement with a minor variation: all characters were allowed a bonus first-level feat to indicate something about their background.
The fifth game is completely houseruled: the GM allowed us all a mess of additional feats to show background (subject to his approval), and he occasionally awards bonus feats instead of level advancement. Our characters are all 10th level now and we all have at least a dozen feats.
I play in 5 different D&D campaigns currently, run by 5 different GMs. Two of them have standard feat advancement, no variations. Two of them have standard feat advancement with a minor variation: all characters were allowed a bonus first-level feat to indicate something about their background.
The fifth game is completely houseruled: the GM allowed us all a mess of additional feats to show background (subject to his approval), and he occasionally awards bonus feats instead of level advancement. Our characters are all 10th level now and we all have at least a dozen feats.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I see one other person thought my way.
By the way, it's not 7 feats in 3 levels. It's 13 feats in 5 levels (3 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 3 feats.)
Add 2 feats for drawbacks from Unearthed Arcana, the starting feat, humans +1 feat, 1 feat per level, fighter and metamagic feats as per the rules, and ...
Well, actually, no ...
Take a Gestalt character ...
Give him 2 starting feats (and 2 more if he's human) since I houserule he gains the benefits of 2 classes (that means 2 feats at the start ...)
Then, give him TWO feats per level, plus TWO metamagic feats at the 5th wizard level and/or TWO fighter feats per 2 fighter levels (1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, etc.)
And, 2 feats for every Drawback taken in Unearthed Arcana.
And allow him to take Feat Master as part of one of his classes, so he gains 13 feats along with his regular abilities (but at the cost of not gaining in another class along with his regular class.)
Thus, a 10th level Gestalt character who is human, made 5th level as a wizard, and made 6th level as a fighter, with 2 drawbacks, would have:
Starting 2 feats (starting) + 2 feats (human) + 4 feats (2 drawbacks) + 20 feats (10th level doubled for gestalt) + 13 feats (Feat Master) + 2 metamagic feats + 8 fighter feats = 51 total feats.
51 total feats, of which 2 must be metamagic and 8 must be fighter feats.
Now, that's more like it.
The player must still pick and choose, as there are a thousand feats to choose from, but his character will have enough of the interesting feats to be ... interesting.
If he specializes, employing his feats in a progression towards one goal, he will be awfully good in that specialty.
-
Just remember this, though:
In MY game, our hero may face an orcish shaman who has both the 4th level spell Abate Spell Resistance and the Kalamarian feat (original version) Irresistible Spell, and Divine Metamagic to make it all possible.
Our lordly character of 10th level, with 51 feats, is hit by a 2nd edition (the messy version) of Hold Person.
The Abate Spell Resistance removes his SR.
The Irresistible Spell removes his save.
Then the orcs roast our hero over an open fire, while singing Christmas Carols.
What goes around, comes around.
By the way, it's not 7 feats in 3 levels. It's 13 feats in 5 levels (3 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 3 feats.)
Add 2 feats for drawbacks from Unearthed Arcana, the starting feat, humans +1 feat, 1 feat per level, fighter and metamagic feats as per the rules, and ...
Well, actually, no ...
Take a Gestalt character ...
Give him 2 starting feats (and 2 more if he's human) since I houserule he gains the benefits of 2 classes (that means 2 feats at the start ...)
Then, give him TWO feats per level, plus TWO metamagic feats at the 5th wizard level and/or TWO fighter feats per 2 fighter levels (1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, etc.)
And, 2 feats for every Drawback taken in Unearthed Arcana.
And allow him to take Feat Master as part of one of his classes, so he gains 13 feats along with his regular abilities (but at the cost of not gaining in another class along with his regular class.)
Thus, a 10th level Gestalt character who is human, made 5th level as a wizard, and made 6th level as a fighter, with 2 drawbacks, would have:
Starting 2 feats (starting) + 2 feats (human) + 4 feats (2 drawbacks) + 20 feats (10th level doubled for gestalt) + 13 feats (Feat Master) + 2 metamagic feats + 8 fighter feats = 51 total feats.
51 total feats, of which 2 must be metamagic and 8 must be fighter feats.
Now, that's more like it.
The player must still pick and choose, as there are a thousand feats to choose from, but his character will have enough of the interesting feats to be ... interesting.
If he specializes, employing his feats in a progression towards one goal, he will be awfully good in that specialty.
-
Just remember this, though:
In MY game, our hero may face an orcish shaman who has both the 4th level spell Abate Spell Resistance and the Kalamarian feat (original version) Irresistible Spell, and Divine Metamagic to make it all possible.
Our lordly character of 10th level, with 51 feats, is hit by a 2nd edition (the messy version) of Hold Person.
The Abate Spell Resistance removes his SR.
The Irresistible Spell removes his save.
Then the orcs roast our hero over an open fire, while singing Christmas Carols.
What goes around, comes around.
brehobit
Explorer
I think that in low-level games (say 1/3rd rate advancement, never greater than 7th or so) giving feats out more often is a good thing. Characters are pretty static compared to standard 3e. Heck, I'm playing with the "feats may be taken at midway through every level" and making them show up at 1st (past the starting one) and every level there after. Makes the (relatively) slow advancement a bit better.Rodrigo Istalindir said:
Mark
Nellisir
Hero
I gave out a feat every level in my last campaign. No one complained, particularly not the fighters. The campaign before that, I gave out a feat every other level. Next campaign, I'll probably give a feat every even level, and a racial ability/feat every odd level (drawn from Dawnforge, Midnight, UA, and more). I use weapon groups.
Li Shenron
Legend
Edena_of_Neith said:
Been trying different house rules through the years, and currently I'm set with 1 feat / level, plus class bonus feats as normal.
It seems to me that feats and spells are the two things which my players want most during character advancement, so by giving them more feats than normal I can somewhat reduce the need to get to high level too soon.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I'd ask my players what kind of feat progression they wanted.
Then I'd go with that.
Then I'd go with that.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
A Question
Ok, you saw my scenario above. A 10th level character with 51 feats. And I'm guessing half of you fainted with horror (or rolled your eyes at yet another silly post of a certain poster ...)
But why not 51 feats?
There are thousands of feats, and over one thousand official or semi-official feats. Why not grant a 10th level PC a chance at 3% to 5% of these feats?
Remember that many feats are almost like penalties you must accept in order to progress in the feat path. Dodge is one of these feats. Point Blank Shot is another.
Other feats require BAB higher than +1, and cannot be obtained at all at early levels.
Why not let the players induge themselves in all those books they bought? At the standard rate of feat progression, they'll never have that chance.
EDIT:
It goes without saying that if a player takes advantage of 51 feats to take Power Attack, then Power Attack x 2 (metaphorical ... a feat that stacks with Power Attack somehow), then Power Attack x 3 ... all the way up through Power Attack x 51, he is going to have a tough character, but extremely vulnerable except along his feat path.
If the player creates multiple characters with Power Attack 1 through Power Attack x 51, he's missing out on the game. He's messing himself out of the wonder and splendor of most of the game.
Ok, you saw my scenario above. A 10th level character with 51 feats. And I'm guessing half of you fainted with horror (or rolled your eyes at yet another silly post of a certain poster ...)
But why not 51 feats?
There are thousands of feats, and over one thousand official or semi-official feats. Why not grant a 10th level PC a chance at 3% to 5% of these feats?
Remember that many feats are almost like penalties you must accept in order to progress in the feat path. Dodge is one of these feats. Point Blank Shot is another.
Other feats require BAB higher than +1, and cannot be obtained at all at early levels.
Why not let the players induge themselves in all those books they bought? At the standard rate of feat progression, they'll never have that chance.
EDIT:
It goes without saying that if a player takes advantage of 51 feats to take Power Attack, then Power Attack x 2 (metaphorical ... a feat that stacks with Power Attack somehow), then Power Attack x 3 ... all the way up through Power Attack x 51, he is going to have a tough character, but extremely vulnerable except along his feat path.
If the player creates multiple characters with Power Attack 1 through Power Attack x 51, he's missing out on the game. He's messing himself out of the wonder and splendor of most of the game.
Michael Silverbane
Adventurer
I would especially not want to have to choose all 51 of those feats at the same time... But I don't know that I'd be that upset about a character that had 51 feats.
Later
silver
Later
silver
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I still think every fighter should - if he is acquiring some sort of 'Feat packet' from a school of learning, or whatever - be required to take the following feats:
Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Finesse.
In other words, the school considers these basic requisites for any decent fighter, and will not hear of someone not learning them, each and every one, before even considering going on to anything else.
For the Rogue, the list is different:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Run, Track, Weapon Finesse
That's 13 and 15 feats, respectively, as many as most characters up to 10th level will ever know in the Standard Progression.
Even given the 2 feats for drawbacks, 1 feat per level, and fighter and metamagic feats, no character of 10th level could know more than around 20 feats, so the 'basic school' above would take up most of their available feats.
Of course, add in the Feat Master with his 13 feats, and you're up to 28 to 33 feats at 10th level. So the 'basic school' would only take up half the available feats.
Now, a school could attempt to impart 'strength' and 'values' to it's students, like thus:
Great Fortitude
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Leadership
It would not be optional, these feats. Take them or leave the school!
Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Finesse.
In other words, the school considers these basic requisites for any decent fighter, and will not hear of someone not learning them, each and every one, before even considering going on to anything else.
For the Rogue, the list is different:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Run, Track, Weapon Finesse
That's 13 and 15 feats, respectively, as many as most characters up to 10th level will ever know in the Standard Progression.
Even given the 2 feats for drawbacks, 1 feat per level, and fighter and metamagic feats, no character of 10th level could know more than around 20 feats, so the 'basic school' above would take up most of their available feats.
Of course, add in the Feat Master with his 13 feats, and you're up to 28 to 33 feats at 10th level. So the 'basic school' would only take up half the available feats.
Now, a school could attempt to impart 'strength' and 'values' to it's students, like thus:
Great Fortitude
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Leadership
It would not be optional, these feats. Take them or leave the school!
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