D&D General A glimpse at WoTC's current view of Rule 0

[Oofta]

Let’s explain this a slightly different way. My barbarian has just found out that his detested cousin has taken advantage of his absence to usurp his position. He encounters a bar looking to let off steam.
The DM briefly describes the bar in two lines. Large mirror, wood panelling, halfling barman on a stepstool.
I, as player, have an image in my mind’s eye as to what this bar looks like. The image is more detailed than the description: that’s how humans work, and without that RPGs probably wouldn’t be possible.
In game:
My barbarian is spoiling for a fight. He walks up to the big guy at a table with friends and rudely knocks off his hat.

The DM didn’t establish that there was a big guy at a table with friends. He didn’t establish that he was wearing a hat to knock off.

The alternative, which would break immersion for some posters, would be to interrupt their action declaration.
1. Ok, is there anyone in the bar?
2. What does he look like?
3. Um, does he have a hat or something I can knock off?

You aren't declaring just an action. You're declaring an action and populating the bar with specific patrons and saying what the patrons are wearing. Again, perfectly fine move in some games, not standard by the book D&D.

What happens if you envision a crowded bar, the guy next to you envisioned an empty bar with just one lone drunk passed out at a table, the DM envisioned a crime scene where as your eyes adjusted to the dim interior you realize everyone is dead and the halfling behind the bar is holding bloody knives and they just hadn't gotten that far into the description?

Instead, ask if the bar is crowded and what you're hoping to find. It's just a different play loop and not one that has ever broken my sense of immersion. On the other hand it would break my sense of immersion if another player was suddenly taking over narration and description of the world.

 

[Mort]

I only skimmed through it so maybe I had the wrong impression and I definitely missed the spoiler. I would have looked at the spoiler and said ... nah, that's dumb. There may be some other result if they get the McGuffin such as being robbed themselves. But while that may be a (stupid) fixed point, that alone doesn't make it a railroad. Just a poorly written plot point.

The railroad is the rest of the adventure combined with stuff like this. I don't use the term railroad lightly, usually preferring linear or some other term. But when the module actively deceives the players into thinking there are choices when there are not? That's a railroad.

As you can probably tell, I don't usually use modules other than to mine for ideas.

The module is worth it for the description and maps of the villain's lairs. These are awesome to plug and play in other adventures (I also tend to mine adventures for parts).

The sad part is, the lairs take up a decent portion of the book and yet the PCs are highly unlikely to actually encounter them - which makes their inclusion just odd.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In part, I was clarifying that the characters actions often has a sizeable impact on what the DM puts in the world. Sometimes by merely asking questions.

The big thing, as you note, is if the DM gets to vett it first.

(I just wish the DM of the real world would instantiate a wider selection of porters and stouts when I ask, instead of just more IPAs).

My wife would agree with you on the beer.

 

[Oofta]

The railroad is the rest of the adventure combined with stuff like this. I don't use the term railroad lightly, usually preferring linear or some other term. But when the module actively deceives the players into thinking there are choices when there are not? That's a railroad.




The module is worth it for the description and maps of the villain's lairs. This are awesome to plug and play in other adventures (I also tend to mine adventures for parts).

The sad part is, the lairs take up a decent portion of the book and yet the PCs are highly unlikely to actually encounter them - which makes their inclusion just odd.

As I said, I only skimmed the module and got the wrong impression. It ended up not being useful for my current campaign arc but I was only going to mine it for ideas anyway.

But as you say just because someone purchased it doesn't mean they will use it that way, so purchasing modules doesn't necessarily say much about what style of game people run.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Creative input on the world is world-bending power. Literally.

Would you characterize the DM as having world-bending power?

I don’t think you would, since « world-bending power » suggests a pre-existing world to bend.

If certain elements of the world aren’t established: who is in the bar? Are they wearing a hat? then it isn’t world-bending to establish details, it’s creative input.

It’s basically begging the question. If your starting point is that the DM has exclusive right to establish everything in the world, then anything a player creates, even if nothing has been established, is « world-bending ».

But you don’t have to start with the premise that the DM has the exclusive right to establish everything in the world.

 

[Mort]

(I just wish the DM of the real world would instantiate a wider selection of porters and stouts when I ask, instead of just more IPAs).

One of the biggest annoyances of my group going online because of the pandemic was that one of my players always brought the absolute best selection of beers, really good stuff that wasn't easy to find.

I think that alone, heavily, influenced the move back to in person fairly early!

 

[Crimson Longinus]

What happens if you envision a crowded bar, the guy next to you envisioned an empty bar with just one lone drunk passed out at a table, the DM envisioned a crime scene where as your eyes adjusted to the dim interior you realize everyone is dead and the halfling behind the bar is holding bloody knives and they just hadn't gotten that far into the description?

So perhaps such wildly different imaginations could sometimes happen, and if so the GM can step in and correct the player's assumptions, but in my experience this is exceedingly rare. However, if this is a common occurrence then I would consider it a GMing mistake, and the GM should improve on how they disseminate the information.

 

[Oofta]

Would you characterize the DM as having world-bending power?

I don’t think you would, since « world-bending power » suggests a pre-existing world to bend.

If certain elements of the world aren’t established: who is in the bar? Are they wearing a hat? then it isn’t world-bending to establish details, it’s creative input.

It’s basically begging the question. If your starting point is that the DM has exclusive right to establish everything in the world, then anything a player creates, even if nothing has been established, is « world-bending ».

But you don’t have to start with the premise that the DM has the exclusive right to establish everything in the world.

The DM is responsible for the world. They don't bend it, they create it. What they don't bend is the character's deeds* and words, they determine how the world responds but they don't change them.

The standard D&D play loop has steps quite clearly spelled out in the PHB
1. The Dungeon Master Describes a Scene.
2. The Players Describe What Their Characters Do.
3. The DM Narrates the Results of the Adventurers’ Actions.

You don't have to assume the DM has the right to establish everything in the world, the source books make it very clear that they do. Of course nobody is going to stop a group from ignoring the text.

*Or at least attempt deeds. The play may declare that they lift up the box on the floor, not realizing the box is bolted to the floor.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Would you characterize the DM as having world-bending power?

Yes, I definitely would!

 

[TwoSix]

Instead, ask if the bar is crowded and what you're hoping to find. It's just a different play loop and not one that has ever broken my sense of immersion. On the other hand it would break my sense of immersion if another player was suddenly taking over narration and description of the world.

And that's totally fair. But even for D&D, I'm pretty much the exact opposite. Any player narrating something happening snaps me into the world far more than a description of the surroundings by the DM.

I think it's events that make me feel immersed, far more than the environmental details. The times I've been most immersed are all situations where I've been deep into discussion or arguments with fellow players, with us acting out our characters, OR conflict-filled quickly moving scenarios.