D&D General A glimpse at WoTC's current view of Rule 0

[Xamnam]

I say this as someone who wants to run Brindlewood Bay badly: There is a incredible gulf in the sort of experience and enjoyment that comes from solving a mystery that a GM has plotted thoroughly in advance and one that is malleable and actively shaped by the players' input.

 

[Warnavick]

A bag of holding has a mouth that is 2 feet in diameter, and the bag itself is 4 feet long. The bag weights 15 lbs regardless of what is stored inside it, and it's inside is an extradimensional space that holds about 500 cubic feet of things. Removing an item from the bag takes an item interaction, and you can use an action to just dump everything out of the bag that is inside it. If you only go by measurements, you can in fact fit three to four average sized humans into the bag with their heads sticking out. They would be uncomfortable, and they would take time to get into the bag, but they would fit.

A bag of holding in 5e has a limit of 500lbs and a 64 cubic feet space limit. So unless your party is very light/small with minimal gear, you probably are only going to fit 2 people at most in an empty bag of holding. For example, My average sized valor bard human weighs about 240lbs between him and his gear's weight. That's just starting equipment plus half plate and he already takes up nearly have the weight limit for a bag of holding. Others have already talked about the Trojan horse thing doesn't work in 5e.

To comment on the flight stuff briefly. PC and monster "Speed" scores are for combat only and to use the travel pace chart for all other travel. So the kobolds flight speed technically doesn't matter for long distance travel since that is for combat. However its ultimately a zone for interpretation because naturally flying PCs didn't exist when the travel rules were made so there is a hole that I am sure many players/DMs would want to fill out. As always, come up with a ruling the whole table can get behind.

I hope my post is someway useful for you, pardon me if this is all irrelevant to the new rules of 5e or your table.

 

[pemerton]

Those darn power hungry DMs expecting people to play by the rules!

Well, until they don't . . . isn't the GM-centred idea of "rule zero" that the GM can change or suspend the rules as they choose?

It seems really odd that in a thread about rule zero we've now had two examples of player creativity - Odin and the bag of holding - shut down by GMs for being 'against the rules'.

I mean, here's the quote being discussed (which again, is specifically from a free, introductory adventure designed for new and young Dungeons & Dragons players):


Regardless of if you agree with their specific stance, it's clear the people arguing against those instances don't agree and are not having fun with them .

What I took from @soviet's post was the GM-centred tone of some of the posts - so far from rule zero being a tool to facilitate imaginative play, it's yet another tool for the GM to use to shape the tone, direction and content of play.

I think that denying player requests in favor of the GM's ideas is certainly something that can be described as railroading. Thresholds for it will vary.

Yes to both sentences.

 

[pemerton]

It comes back to the same issue for me though. One particular class gets special benefits that others don't. Heck, if a cleric can call in a favor from Odin, why not just have Odin blast enemies from the heavens? All Odin has to do is point Gungnir at a mortal and they die after all.

This is hyperbole sitting at the top of a slippery slope!

Even if you had a system for devout non clerics, what about the guy that wants to play a non devout character? Is there an alternative power source for them to tap into? Can the rogue call in favors from a guild that have similar impact or a fighter cash in promises of aid?

Dunno. But why not?

And also, I come back to a point that @hawkeyefan has made more than once: in a RPG scenario with a McGuffin, the general trajectory of play is that the PCs will find the McGuffin. What harm does it to to the play of the game that they learn where the McGuffin is because Odin tells them?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

the general trajectory of play is that the PCs will find the McGuffin. What harm does it to to the play of the game that they learn where the McGuffin is because Odin tells them?

What’s the difference between solving a crossword puzzle and looking up the answers and filling in the grid? What is the difference between reading Murder on the Orient Express and Odin telling you “don’t bother, everyone did it and Hercule Poirot lets them off”?

 

[chaochou]

in a RPG scenario with a McGuffin, the general trajectory of play is that the PCs will find the McGuffin. What harm does it to to the play of the game that they learn where the McGuffin is because Odin tells them?

If you've signed up to being railroaded through the kind of adventure which needs mcguffins, presumably it's considered bad form to then try and avoid being railroaded through whatever hoops the GM has scripted before they'll read you that bit of their notes?

 

[AnotherGuy]

I can think of a couple, one recent and minor, another from years ago and much more significant.

I think these kinds of examples being discussed help in that much of trad side has such concerns of players seeking the win condition at the expense of the narrative, fair play etc and to be fair, trad games often breed and attract these kinds of players and playstyles. So it becomes a circular issue, self-fulfilling dilemma.

I think it is great that players of indie styles share their war stories like you did because this is something that trad games encounter more frequently and this share, IMO, is a much more effective technique than dismissing trad DMs concerns. And like you said the system also plays a role to a degree.

 

[TiQuinn]

Did 5e do away with the rule that says you can't put one extradimensional space inside another?

It’s still there in 5e, but don’t know about 5.5. I would assume they didn’t change it.

 

[Oofta]

This is hyperbole sitting at the top of a slippery slope!

Why? Where do you draw the line? Either the god can aid or not. I don't think the player would have asked for it but it you're bypassing the rules you then have to figure out what level of assistance can they get. How do you balance it out with benefits other player classes get. The rules of the game are reasonably balanced, getting a favor for no reason other than you have "cleric" written on your character sheet is not something I want to bother with.

Dunno. But why not?


And also, I come back to a point that @hawkeyefan has made more than once: in a RPG scenario with a McGuffin, the general trajectory of play is that the PCs will find the McGuffin. What harm does it to to the play of the game that they learn where the McGuffin is because Odin tells them?

They're still doing an end run around the rules when following the rules was tried and did not work. The game has rules for a reason. This was not an ally who the PCs had gone out of their way to aid, there hadn't been any effort on the part of the players to curry favor. Odin did not owe the PC a debt that was being repaid. Odin had already granted the player powers. I see no reason to go above and beyond what the rules allow just because it would have been more convenient.

 

[Oofta]

It’s still there in 5e, but don’t know about 5.5. I would assume they didn’t change it.

They didn't change it. It goes boom, so the Arrowhead of Complete Destruction is still an option.