OSR A Historical Look at the OSR

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Its pretty cool, I do like the OSE. Bummer the only copy of the game is on ebay at $240. I bought the pdf but I'm more of a book person.
So thousands of modules but nobody is publishing more of the rule books, we have to wait for each kickstarter. I guess I can just buy an extra 100 copies and massive profit from it ! :)
Which game is on eBay for $240? OSE?

Necrotic Gnome is printing more of the OSE rule books. I just got copies of the Advanced Fantasy Players' and DM's hardover books in the mail yesterday, having ordered them recently when Exalted Funeral got some more in stock. I bought the Classic Fantasy volume around the holidays as well; I think during EF's Black Friday sale.
 

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Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
There are absolutely proponents of random generation even now, but the preference seems unconnected in any logical way with the rest of the Old School D&D model usually presented by folks into that. Yet it still seems mostly attached to it.
Well, this gets into some of the ambiguity and sometimes contradictions involved with the question of what is "the Old School D&D model usually presented by folks"? As the article series points out, some of the common shorthand concepts, like "rules light" are not actually universal, even if they're bandied about very widely. A LOT of OSR fans clearly do really like rules-light games. OTOH, that's inherently contradictory to AD&D 1E being one of the original, most prominent games focused on by the OSR. :LOL:
 
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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
@Mannahnin

So to address this post more directly, I think the contribution from @rogueattorney is helpful in illuminating some of the issues when it comes to discussing OSR or "old school" in general.

The first is that, as was helpfully pointed out, there was a specific movement in the very early early 2000s to clone rule-sets to enable people to play older versions of D&D. This was a specific response to the time that I think some people have forgotten (or newer players aren't aware of). Since this was just covered, it doesn't need to be dealt with in depth again, but this was a reaction against WoTC and 3e. In other words, because the older rulesets were not available, people craving the "TSR" experience instead of 3e looked to make their own, compatible rulesets (whether for OD&D, B/X BECMI RC, 1e, or 2e). Moreover, we see the explicit use of the name "old school" in two of the most prominent of these rulesets- OSRIC is Old School Reference and Index Compilation. OSE is Old School Essentials. That said, I wouldn't say that the desire to clone (or clean up a little) the older rulesets necessarily carries a philosophical component. It was just people that were worried because their favorite games had disappeared, and they would rather play the older rules than the new-fangled 3e (at that time). Notably, this was specific to D&D, simply because it arose in a very specific context of a new edition being released and older editions were not available (and would not be officially until 2013).

However, there is a separate component to this, which both involves the older rules (and retroclones) and stands independent from them. I haven't done a deep dive on this, but I would say that, arguably, it rose to prominence as a reaction to 4e. I could be wrong, but the earliest documents related to it as a philosophical movement (such as Matt Finch's primer) date to 2008. Arguably, "old school" or "OSR" is best conceived when thinking of a specific set of ideas as to "how to play" as a reaction against the direction of D&D- both 3e and the new 4e. Again, this is particular to D&D because it arose both as a reaction to the current "direction" of the game, and because it presented a "historical" version of the game as the way to play. This included ideas like- resource management, regular characters (not superheroes), unbalanced scenarios that the players would have to chose how to solve, a reliance on rulings by the DM as opposed to rules, and the idea of "player skill" not "character skill" (aka, skilled play). Usually, there would be additional bits added in (mapping, hirelings, etc.).

Notably, like all movements that call for a return to the past, it presents a unified, but false vision of what the past was. Obviously, and this should go without saying, the past is not a monolith. As you know, having read Elusive Shift, there was a vast variety of playing styles and approaches to OD&D in the 70s. While I think that OSR captures some concepts from then that have fallen out of favor in more modern games, it is also necessary to point out that it is certainly not true that every game back then was an attrition-based megadungeon crawl with 10' poles and disposable waves of hirelings. As you are aware, the sheer weirdness of the games is captured by the fact that so many early RPGs were, in fact, simply spinoffs of D&D (one of my favorite anecdotes is that Superhero 2044, the first superhero RPG published in 1977, was actually the campaign notes from an OD&D game where the characters went through a portal and met up with comic book heroes).

Unfortunately, when you have a style that is explicitly rooted in the the rejection of modern gaming, it will often attract people that are along for the ride not because they are rejecting the rules of modern games, but because they are rejecting the sensibility of the people that are playing. In other words, the nostalgic attraction isn't rooted in the simplicity of the rules or the belief that these rules better allow for a better game for their table, but instead a nostalgic attraction for a time when (in their opinion) they didn't have to worry about appropriation, or risque art, or inclusive play. The adoption of this, for these people, is a rejection of the modern ansd a political statement.

...which is unfortunate. I think that the vast majority of people attracted to OSR or "old school" games, specifically to the various retroclones and versions of D&D that seem to comprise the majority of the current "old school" market, just love aspects of the play or the rules. Others have stripped away the rulesets even more (this is FKR, which is just the latest iteration of "rules lite, DM adjudicates" that has been part of the hobby since the 70s as well).

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I genuinely love the older games and the history involved, and I have a special appreciation for people like @Sacrosanct that go out of their way to make inclusive OSR game, but it can be difficult to discuss these issues because they often get derailed for various reasons. Which is unfortunate, to me, because there are aspects of play that are worth discussing.

So, good luck! :)
 

Greggy C

Hero
I believe there is an upcoming Kickstarter for an OSE Box Set in February.
Yeah I'm signed up
Which game is on eBay for $240? OSE?

Necrotic Gnome is printing more of the OSE rule books. I just got copies of the Advanced Fantasy Players' and DM's hardover books in the mail yesterday, having ordered them recently when Exalted Funeral got some more in stock. I bought the Classic Fantasy volume around the holidays as well; I think during EF's Black Friday sale.
Yeah I'm only talking about OSE.
 

Greggy C

Hero
I actually advised the makers of OSRIC to take a different approach other than the retro-clone. (They were smart to ignore me.)
I have one question related to this.

Why retro-clone?

I mean I can guess why, it allows the old modules to be easily used, it leverages the brand, keeps the same monsters etc.

But the main issue is that everyone is still tied to the same license, and that license limits the possibilities of what you can do (and possibly it limited big publishers from getting involved?).

You could have created a new game, lets called it Mazes and Monsters, used most of the same mechanics and redid the monsters? It might take longer I guess but at least you would be free.
 

rogueattorney

Adventurer
Thanks for the perspective! Would you say "OSR" does or should correspond to any specific play style (as in Matt Finch's primer)? Or is it just about early editions, played in all the various ways those editions were played at the time?
The initial goal of the OSRIC was to get 1e AD&D back in print. I was in discussions with Matt and Stuart and the rest about whether and to what extent people were going to use what they were working on to make products that clashed with our sensibilities, and the conclusion was that people were going to definitely do that and that in the end, it wouldn't matter if we got 1e back in print so that the creators we knew would make product we liked would have the opportunity to do it with the rule system we liked.

I don't mean to speak for Matt, but my interpretation of the Old School Primer at the time was that he was introducing the "head space" to be in for people to appreciate the rule set he was selling - Swords & Wizardry. I didn't see it as a broad manifesto for old school gaming, but rather an introduction to the specific OD&D clone he had just published. I think that's pretty clear from the second paragraph of his Primer:
If you want to try a one-shot session of 0e using the free Swords & Wizardry rules, just
printing the rules and starting to play as you normally do will produce a completely
pathetic gaming session – you’ll decide that 0e is just missing all kinds of important
rules. What makes 0e different from later games isn’t the rules themselves, it’s how
they’re used.
Personally, I think that if people want to make games conforming to the style laid out in Matt's primer, that's all good. For example, I'm really intrigued by Ultraviolet Grasslands and the faux-old school game Encounter Critical (which actually preceded OSCRIC, Matt's Primer and the OSR as a whole by a couple years) is one of my favorite things ever. But I don't think that was the original intent.
 

rogueattorney

Adventurer
Its pretty cool, I do like the OSE. Bummer the only copy of the game is on ebay at $240. I bought the pdf but I'm more of a book person.
So thousands of modules but nobody is publishing more of the rule books, we have to wait for each kickstarter. I guess I can just buy an extra 100 copies and massive profit from it ! :)
It really sucks that DriveThru doesn't have the B/X rules for pod right now. You can get the Rules Cyclopedia for $21 right now, though.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic?filters=44828_0_0_44294_0

You can also get Labyrinth Lord, which is essentially the exact same thing as B/X and OSE. Seriously, the rules differences are miniscule. From Lulu for $21.95.
Lulu
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Which game is on eBay for $240? OSE?

Necrotic Gnome is printing more of the OSE rule books. I just got copies of the Advanced Fantasy Players' and DM's hardover books in the mail yesterday, having ordered them recently when Exalted Funeral got some more in stock. I bought the Classic Fantasy volume around the holidays as well; I think during EF's Black Friday sale.

Yeah I'm only talking about OSE.
I'm also talking about OSE.

I literally just bought three OSE rulebooks brand new from Exalted Funeral, so your comments that "Bummer the only copy of the game is on ebay at $240. I bought the pdf but I'm more of a book person. So thousands of modules but nobody is publishing more of the rule books, we have to wait for each kickstarter" are super confusing to me. The rulebooks are available for sale, not just modules.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
It really sucks that DriveThru doesn't have the B/X rules for pod right now. You can get the Rules Cyclopedia for $21 right now, though.
D&D Rules Cyclopedia (Basic) - Wizards of the Coast | D&D Basic | Player/DM Guides | D&D Basic | DriveThruRPG.com

You can also get Labyrinth Lord, which is essentially the exact same thing as B/X and OSE. Seriously, the rules differences are miniscule. From Lulu for $21.95.
Lulu
There are enough little changes in LL that it's more different than I like, but it's definitely a good game.

If one is outside the US, one can also build one'sown POD B/X.
 

rogueattorney

Adventurer
I have one question related to this.

Why retro-clone?

I mean I can guess why, it allows the old modules to be easily used, it leverages the brand, keeps the same monsters etc.

But the main issue is that everyone is still tied to the same license, and that license limits the possibilities of what you can do (and possibly it limited big publishers from getting involved?).

You could have created a new game, lets called it Mazes and Monsters, used most of the same mechanics and redid the monsters? It might take longer I guess but at least you would be free.
You know that Oliver LeGrand actually did make a game called Mazes & Minotaurs, which was based off of OD&D, but set in Greek mythology instead of Tolkien-ish fantasy? The first edition was released before OSRIC and the rest of the clones. The blog posts that started this thread references it.

But to answer your larger question, it goes back to the roots of where OSRIC came from. They wanted to publish supplements for 1e AD&D. They weren't looking to make a brand new 1e-ish game. If that's what they'd wanted, there was already Hackmaster, Castles & Crusades, Palladium FRPG, and literally dozens of others, or just hacking up 3e to fit their needs for that matter.
 

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