D&D General A paladin just joined the group. I'm a necromancer.

[Maxperson]

So by your own definitions, ‘Destroy all Undead’ as a standard treatment in ‘ RAW’ campaigns is acceptable. This would then, be a morally justified genocide, by those terms.

Skeletons at 6 Int, ( which I find is too high, personally ), are equal to apes.
Chimpanzees and Orangs meet the definition of sentient and sapient, and also have a 6 Int.

Thus we arrive at: in a D&D context, mass killing of anything with a 6 or greater Int is genocide.

I think he exempted undead and constructs as not being alive, so not possible to kill.

 

[Iry]

That defies the definition of Genocide, though, which limits it to people. You would need sapience for that. A personal definition that would include grass is unhelpful.

You're free to define it that way, but that's not very helpful in a fantasy world where non sapient beings can build empires. Or beings you can't agree upon whether they are sapient or not.

 

[Maxperson]

You're free to define it that way, but that's not very helpful in a fantasy world where non sapient beings can build empires. Or beings you can't agree upon whether they are sapient or not.

Seriously? You're going to try and tell me that non-intelligent grass can build empires?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Seek diplomatic ties with the 'evildoers'.

They are evil they will turn traitor, attack you to kill, enslave, pillage ect.

Seek to redeem them.

Objectively evil, you can't redeem them. That is not how objective evil works. To redeem someone they have to have good in them, evil does not have good in it.

Forge allegiances with other nations/ build a strong military of your own as a deterrent.

So they wait til they are stronger, or attack the edges of your alliance anyways.

I guess you could keep them alive in compounds or reserves, just to make sure you didn't genocide the population.

Of course, you also have to deal with those creatures on the list like Yuan-Ti and Mindflayers, who specialize in infiltration and spycraft. Having a massive military doesn't prevent those creatures from still attacking you.

If none of that works, and an attack is imminent, force is an option. Force reasonable and proportionate to the threat posed, and only when no other option (diplomacy etc) reasonably presents itself.

Right, so you kill as many of them as it takes for them to stop attacking you. They will gather their strength and attack a few generations later, when you will go ahead and kill as many of them as it takes to stop them from attacking you.

They are evil, remember? Objectively evil and living only to kill, enslave and pillage.

Open your PHB to the Paladin entry. Tell me what race the Paladin illustration is?

Orcs tend to be evil; but not all of them are, and even the cruellest Orc can be redeemed.

You mean the half-orc? He's not a full-blooded orc. Note that half-orcs don't appear in the monster manual. Probably because they are not objectively evil.

Incorrect. RAW says:

A monster’s Alignment provides a clue to its disposition and how it behaves in a Roleplaying or Combat situation. For example, a chaotic evil monster might be difficult to reason with and might Attack characters on sight, whereas a neutral monster might be willing to negotiate.

The Alignment specified in a monster’s stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster’s Alignment to suit the needs of your campaign. If you want a good-aligned green dragon or an evil Storm Giant, there’s nothing stopping you.

So by RAW, the alignment of a creature in the MM is simply the default; it's not an objective inviolable absolute.

So no, not all Orcs are evil, just like not all Drow are Evil (see also: Drizzt). By default, most of them are, but there are plenty of examples of even things like Outsiders (Angels and Devils) that have changed alignment (Erinyes, Asmodeus and Zariel were all once Angels, and Grazzt was once a Devil).

Huh, that's funny. I quoted that exact same passage to you a while ago.

Your response has still been that if a monsters statblock says it is evil, then it is evil. Regardless of the context surrounding it

So, does that only apply to the monsters you want it to apply to? Which monsters specifically are objectively evil and which are able to be changed from good to evil? Or are you just saying you can homebrew it to change it.

If its sentient/ sapient and alive, then it counts as a person.

Undead and Constructs cant be killed. They're not alive to begin with.

Demons and Devils do fit in this description. Genocide against them is evil. Understandable, but evil. Canonically (and by RAW) even Demons and Devils can be redeemed and change alignment.

Treat them with extreme prejudice though!

Oh, interesting perspective.

So, you can't kill a warforged correct? Modron? Do we have a new term for ending the sentient life if it is non-biological? If I go and blow up a house with a warforged alchemist in it, is that murder or simple destruction of property?

 

[Iry]

Seriously? You're going to try and tell me that non-intelligent grass can build empires?

Maybe they already have one. What do we know? I'm reminded of the dolphins from hitchhiker's guide. It's the old ants to Giants problem.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Says who? Evil does not equate to mindless. They might kill you, or they might not.

Ah, a fair point.

The Monster Manual. It says that orcs only gather in tribes to sate their bloodlust and attack other humanoids. Since I must take the Monster Manual as objective truth, any tribe of orcs will attack on sight.

If that's how your DM plays evil, I feel really bad for you.

No, this is you and Flamestrike's defintion. I'm only repeating the points you have been using after all.

Flamestike has repeatedly asked ift agreeing with any morally questionable act means I support everything from genocide to necrophilia. They are the one who has defined evil as murder, pillage, rape, ect. And you have mostly agree with them.

So, here we are.

By RAW, the DM is free to make exceptions. Altering the entire entry requires homebrew.

Right, so what, out of those 75 species I listed, we get about hundred individuals each who aren't evil? Across a multiverse that would be less than .0000000000000000000000000001 % right?

Is almost killing every living member a species less evil than just finishing them off? I mean, they die due to genetic bottle-necking eventually right?

So what. You can't just murder something because it's evil.

If they are remote, there aren't any villages to plunder. That's why I specified remote.

Well, then according to the MM they are looking for a village to plunder. That is all orcs do after all. They raid and plunder.

And if you know they will attack and kill you, how is attacking first evil?

In editions I'm most familiar with, some creatures had "always evil" listed in their alignment, such as Imps. Others simply said "evil"

So it isn't as if every Dark Elf you ever meet is 100% guaranteed to be Evil. It's simply the default case. You might meet an Orc with a sense of pride, and a relatively honorable approach when dealing with outsiders. But he/she would be the anomaly. Is that Orcish village full of Evil people? Yes. Maybe not 100% evil, but enough to consider them hostile and dangerous as a group.

Enough to justify being wiped out? Not unless they've done something to provoke. Otherwise you're becoming as Evil as they are.

As I said to Maxperson. Using the Definitions they have argued for weeks under, that is a tiny percentage of the population across the mutliverse. And, that is homebrewing the creature to change it.

I am supposed to take only the information from the statblock and the monster manual. So while execeptions might exist, the vast majority of races in the DnD are evil, and while attempt to kill, enslave, genocide, ect ect ect everyone else.

 

[Maxperson]

The Monster Manual. It says that orcs only gather in tribes to sate their bloodlust and attack other humanoids. Since I must take the Monster Manual as objective truth, any tribe of orcs will attack on sight.

Dude. You only hurt yourself with arguments like this.

According to your argument, orcs don't breed, since the MM doesn't say so. So they don't actually ever get born, and therefore don't exist in order to "Sate their bloodlust and attack other humanoids."

Clearly they are not limited to that fluff, therefore they don't HAVE to attack other humanoids on sight, since you know, they have minds and all.

No, this is you and Flamestrike's defintion. I'm only repeating the points you have been using after all.

Your understanding of our position is sorely lacking.

Right, so what, out of those 75 species I listed, we get about hundred individuals each who aren't evil? Across a multiverse that would be less than .0000000000000000000000000001 % right?

I have no idea. Did you determine there to be 100 individuals each that are of different alignment in your game? Because if you did, then there are........................for your game.

Well, then according to the MM they are looking for a village to plunder. That is all orcs do after all. They raid and plunder.

No it isn't. As I proved to you above, they do other things than the MM says.

 

[Lanefan]

Of course. I've done the exact same.

Prosecution: 'Why did you murder that man at the bar?'
Accused: 'He pinged as evil when I used my Detect Evil spell!'

Been there, done that, almost word by word.

My PC was the victim. 1e-style game.

Her two classes, Assassin and Necromancer, rather forced her to be Evil on paper, though her personality was/is directly based on Jack Sparrow.

During some in-town downtime, when some of the PCs had met in a tavern one night, one of the party goody-goods decided to cast Know Alignment on us all, and of course pulled me as E. Next came Hold Person (I failed my save by a lot), followed by him trying to convince the rest of the party to help him kill me. None bought in, so when the Hold was about to expire he ran me through. Dead.

What the goody-good didn't realize was that the two guilds of which my PC was a member (both Assassins and Necromancers tend to form mutual-support guilds in that setting) between them pretty much owned and ran the town we were in!

Arrest. Trial. Open and shut case, with several PCs testifying against the killer. Sentence: he pays my revival costs no matter how high (and it came out pretty high, neither conventional raise nor resurrection worked as my Con was so poor), and is banned from the nation for life. The only reason he wasn't simply put to death himself is that his background has him as a foreign diplomat: killing him would be politically unwise.

And the party threw him out.

 

[Lanefan]

Kind of like asking, "Is this color too fast?", the adjective is inconsistent with the noun.

By sheer bad luck, I think, you hit on a poor example.

The term "fast" can and does apply to colour in an obscure way: how resistant a colour is to fading from sunlight or other light sources. Often said as "lightfast".

 

[Chaosmancer]

Dude. You only hurt yourself with arguments like this.

According to your argument, orcs don't breed, since the MM doesn't say so. So they don't actually ever get born, and therefore don't exist in order to "Sate their bloodlust and attack other humanoids."

Clearly they are not limited to that fluff, therefore they don't HAVE to attack other humanoids on sight, since you know, they have minds and all.

I am simply using the same argument that you used.

If you find it lacking, then maybe you can understand why I found your own argument lacking before. And, Volo's saves us from spontaneously appearing orcs, without changing anything in the monster manual.

In fact, it tells us "All are fighters" and all of the members of the tribe are meant to act like warriors if their group is threatened. Say by being found by a group of heavily armed adventurers.

And how do orc warriors act? Well, in the paragraph above that we get "Orc warriors are commanded to scour the surrounding landscape for any opportunity to spill blood...." So, no negotiations or running away. They will very likely attack on sight.

Of course, like you kept telling me, you are free to homebrew it if you like.

Your understanding of our position is sorely lacking.

What portion am I getting wrong? Objective Evil? The Statblock is not changed except by homebrew? The Monster Manual fills in the details, and any details it misses should be dismissed?

I have no idea. Did you determine there to be 100 individuals each that are of different alignment in your game? Because if you did, then there are........................for your game.

Then how many "exceptions" to the default are there? 50% isn't an exception, 25% isn't an exception (those are actual percentages called out in stat blocks) so how much lower should we go? 10% of the population? 5%?

Or is it just "Well, the statblock isn't universal, it can change" which disagrees with what you said before?

No it isn't. As I proved to you above, they do other things than the MM says.

They could propogate by budding, wouldn't change anything. The point isn't "well they have sex" the point is that they are evil. The statblock says they are evil, and that is the default. The Monster Manual says they gather together to kill, loot, and pillage. Not have polite discussions over tea. And, like I said, Volo's is RAW and covers this. So, we can add Volo's in if you wish.

And still, orcs are evil. They will attempt to kill, maim, or rape any humanoud they encounter that isn't another orc (and not even then really)