D&D General A paladin just joined the group. I'm a necromancer.

[Chaosmancer]

Yes it is, but not with genocide.

''Hey look - that [evil] race is using murder, slavery, torture and genocide!''

''We're the good guys. Lets murder them, torture them, enslave them and wipe them all out! It's the only good thing to do!''

If you murder, or torture, or enslave, or commit genocide or rape, or anything of that nature, it doesn't matter what your ends are. You're evil.

For what its worth, there are plenty of evil people fighting for a good cause. They're the guys and gals prepared to get their hands dirty and do what needs to be done for 'the greater good.'

Doesn't make them any less evil.

So, killing them is fine. Killing all of them isn't.

 

[Flamestrike]

So, killing them is fine. Killing all of them isn't.

No - killing them in self defence (or the defence of others) when no other option reasonably presents itself is fine (fine as in 'not evil').

A Wood Elf who launches a crusade into the Underdark on a quest to raze Drow cities, slaughter and enslave every Drow man, woman and child until there are none left, is evil. He's just as evil as the Drow themselves.

 

[Maxperson]

If you accept that there is Objective Good and Objective Evil in DnD,

This is a fact unless the DM changes it. There's nothing to "accept."

and that all monsters with "Evil" in their statblock are guaranteed to be evil. Then I only have one question left.

Why would that be a guarantee? The DM is free to depart from the default for individuals. If he wants to change the default, though, that's a home brew.

For example. The DM wants a LG zombie? He just makes one and it's not homebrew. If the DM wants all zombies to be LG? He has to change the default alignment for that "race," which takes homebrew.

Is it a Good act to remove evil from the world?

Up to the DM I suppose. Good and evil are objective in D&D, but there's not a list of actions that are good or evil.

 

[Maxperson]

So, killing them is fine. Killing all of them isn't.

Depends on what they are doing. If you happen onto a remote tribe of orcs and just start killing them, it could be an evil act. If there is an orc tribe that is raiding local villages and killing villagers, killing them is not going to be an evil act.

 

[Flamestrike]

Depends on what they are doing. If you happen onto a remote tribe of orcs and just start killing them, it could be an evil act. If there is an orc tribe that is raiding local villages and killing villagers, killing them is not going to be an evil act.

Exactly. As long as you take every effort to minimise harm, and only use reasonable and proportionate force to the threat.

So many dudes make the claim that 'evil' creatures and people can be hacked to death while sitting at a bar drinking ale, and that this violent murder is somehow a 'good' act based on the alignment of the victim.

It's just as much of an evil act as it would be murdering a goodly farmer at the bar.

 

[Maxperson]

Exactly. As long as you take every effort to minimise harm, and only use reasonable and proportionate force to the threat.

So many dudes make the claim that 'evil' creatures and people can be hacked to death while sitting at a bar drinking ale, and that this violent murder is somehow a 'good' act based on the alignment of the victim.

It's just as much of an evil act as it would be murdering a goodly farmer at the bar.

I've had PCs arrested and jailed for that.

 

[Flamestrike]

I've had PCs arrested and jailed for that.

Of course. I've done the exact same.

Prosecution: 'Why did you murder that man at the bar?'
Accused: 'He pinged as evil when I used my Detect Evil spell!'

 

[Chaosmancer]

No - killing them in self defence (or the defence of others) when no other option reasonably presents itself is fine (fine as in 'not evil').

A Wood Elf who launches a crusade into the Underdark on a quest to raze Drow cities, slaughter and enslave every Drow man, woman and child until there are none left, is evil. He's just as evil as the Drow themselves.

Understood.

So, we let them build up strength, and because they are evil (objectively so) they will then attack us to rape, enslave, and pillage. So we kill a bunch of them until they are too weak to attack us again (therefore in self defense) and then wait for them to get strong.

Then they will attack us, killing, enslaving, and pillaging (again, objectively evil, they will never do anything else) so we will cull their population again.

And, like non-evil people, we will just let this go for all eternity.

Sound about right?

Depends on what they are doing. If you happen onto a remote tribe of orcs and just start killing them, it could be an evil act. If there is an orc tribe that is raiding local villages and killing villagers, killing them is not going to be an evil act.

But that remote tribe is evil right? Orcs are evil. So as soon as they see you, they will attack you to rape, enslave or kill you.

So, attacking them first doesn't matter, they will attack you, you will fight back, and either you are weaker and therefore lose, or you kill them all.

This is a fact unless the DM changes it. There's nothing to "accept."

Why would that be a guarantee? The DM is free to depart from the default for individuals. If he wants to change the default, though, that's a home brew.

See, because here is the thing. RAW, all orcs are evil. All goblins are evil. Ect. Creatures that have a choice have "any alignment" listed.

After all, evil is objective. If you see an orc, the DM will look at the statblock in the Monster Manual. That statblock will say Evil.

Sure, they can homebrew it like you said, but every orc is evil. Objectively. That is what it means to have objective good and evil in DnD, and to use the statblocks as RAW for alignment.

Every Orc is a, what does the MM say, "savage raider and pillager" who "gather in tribes to exert their dominance and satisfy their bloodlust by plundering villages, devouring or driving off roaming herds, and slaying any humanoids that stand against them"

You are free to change that for your games if you like, but that is RAW, can't argue against it.

 

[Flamestrike]

Understood.

So, we let them build up strength, and because they are evil (objectively so) they will then attack us to rape, enslave, and pillage. So we kill a bunch of them until they are too weak to attack us again (therefore in self defense) and then wait for them to get strong.

Then they will attack us, killing, enslaving, and pillaging (again, objectively evil, they will never do anything else) so we will cull their population again.

And, like non-evil people, we will just let this go for all eternity.

Sound about right?

No it doesnt, because Good isnt stupid.

Just because genocide is off the table, doesn't mean there isnt other options available! Seek diplomatic ties with the 'evildoers'. Seek to redeem them. Forge allegiances with other nations/ build a strong military of your own as a deterrent.

If none of that works, and an attack is imminent, force is an option. Force reasonable and proportionate to the threat posed, and only when no other option (diplomacy etc) reasonably presents itself.

But that remote tribe is evil right? Orcs are evil. So as soon as they see you, they will attack you to rape, enslave or kill you.

Open your PHB to the Paladin entry. Tell me what race the Paladin illustration is?

Orcs tend to be evil; but not all of them are, and even the cruellest Orc can be redeemed.

See, because here is the thing. RAW, all orcs are evil.

Incorrect. RAW says:

A monster’s Alignment provides a clue to its disposition and how it behaves in a Roleplaying or Combat situation. For example, a chaotic evil monster might be difficult to reason with and might Attack characters on sight, whereas a neutral monster might be willing to negotiate.

The Alignment specified in a monster’s stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster’s Alignment to suit the needs of your campaign. If you want a good-aligned green dragon or an evil Storm Giant, there’s nothing stopping you.

So by RAW, the alignment of a creature in the MM is simply the default; it's not an objective inviolable absolute.

So no, not all Orcs are evil, just like not all Drow are Evil (see also: Drizzt). By default, most of them are, but there are plenty of examples of even things like Outsiders (Angels and Devils) that have changed alignment (Erinyes, Asmodeus and Zariel were all once Angels, and Grazzt was once a Devil).

 

[Iry]

Genocide is explicitly against people, so you can't even attempt it.

In a fantasy setting people can be almost anything, assuming some kind of sentience. My comment about elementals, modrons, myconids, and androids was both a joke AND serious.