D&D (2024) A Revised Necromancer Subclass?

[DEFCON 1]

That's kinda what this thread is about: What would a better implemented Necromancer wizard subclass look like?


I'm not entirely sure that this assumption squares with the necromancer's relative popularity in a wide breath of video games where they exist as heroic or protagonistic characters: e.g., Diablo 2-4, Guild Wars 1-2, Elder Scrolls Online, Path of Exile, etc. I have seen a fair number of players express interest in the Necromancer over the past 20 some years. However, many were kind of underwhelmed by it in D&D, especially when compared to some of the aforementioned video games. My own bias leans more towards a gap between the D&D Necro and the Pop Culture Necro rather than it being perceived as a villain option. (Though maybe this is also generational.)

Possibly. Although I think there is a larger and easier to justify separation of morality when you are sitting by yourself at a computer doing "evil things" and when you have three to six other people sitting across from you in a room and you do them. And in addition, I think it is also much easier to keep yourself at arm's length from what you do when you are just playing the bits the video game designers programmed into the system for you to do, than it is when you have to invent and then verbally describe the gruesome actions you are taking-- especially when your descriptions have a much wider range and level of detail available.

When a Death Knight in World of Warcraft summons a zombie, an animation just pops up of a generic zombie sprite climbing out of the ground and then runs off. When you animate the dead in D&D... the players and/or Dungeon Master can and probably will do into more graphical detail about just what happens to the corpse of the flayed townsperson lying at your feet and gets raised as a zombie... in addition to describing the reactions of the other horrified townspeople who witness it.

Now how big of an issue that actually is, I have no idea. But I do definitely believe that verbal inventiveness and narration of evil action from someone sitting across from you has a more visceral feel for a lot of people than just seeing sprites on a screen do it, and thus doing these actions in tabletop is quite possibly more objectionable than doing them in video games-- especially if playing with a DM who would actually take the morality of taking control of a person's corpse for personal gain into account. So it could be an explanation why the Necromancer in D&D is not seen the same way as a Necromancer in Diablo 4.

 

[Weiley31]

The Diablo series has forever ruined the image of the Necromancer for me. Not because I think of it being a terrible version of the concept, far from it. It's probably my favorite depiction of the Necromancer in any form of media. Specifically, the Diablo 3 version. (probably the Diablo 4 version as well but I haven't played that).

Because of that, the Necromancer of 5E just doesn't appeal to me. Because then I'm dealing with the Diablo image of the Necromancer, wading through their foes alongside their Skeletal Soldiers/Frankenstein Golems, which just doesn't mesh with the 5E Necromancer wizard subclass. They (5E Necros) are D6 casters hiding behind the martials. The Diablo Necromancer is more like a D8 Gish type deal with minions.

Speaking of Minions, that's another thing about the fiction with the Necromancer: their Undead Servants. Now, WoTC and 5E has always had a precarious relationship with pets in this edition. Not only is there the whole deal with Action Economy (with players waiting for their turn after the 5th skeleton is attacking) but also the lack/crappy notion of not scaling. Your Minion's ONLY saving grace was the fact that it was free HP to soak up damage and "extra" turns of attacks. And when those couldn't be relied on, they were pretty much useless.

Granted, in more recent years WoTC has gotten a tad somewhat better with making sure that if you have a Companion/Pet, they are at least scaling to ensure they aren't just plain useless. However, any worthwhile method of scaling for your Pets/Minions is either jacking the Revised Ranger's Companion's Bond feature or via the 3PP Companion rules of MCDMs' (Flee Mortals!) and their Beastheart class PDF.

Yet, the Necromancer, trope wise, is heavily associated with having their own undead buddies. And yes, that means a Necromancer has numbers on their side. Which then drags out the turns or screws around with Bounded Accuracy. And yes, with minions that means there can't be a worry about them NOT properly scaling and still being relevant from the start of the Necromancer's career and all the way up to dueling with Diablo himself or 2024 Vecna at the end of the Multiverse 5E saga.

Also: the argument where a Necromancer can be a dark hero or not will probably pop up. (No, Animate Dead is evil and no good person would use it for the greater good. Or is it!?

 

[Aldarc]

Possibly. Although I think there is a larger and easier to justify separation of morality when you are sitting by yourself at a computer doing "evil things" and when you have three to six other people sitting across from you in a room and you do them.

Evil things? These things are increasingly moving away from being depicted as "evil things" in games. Maybe things or dark arts that give other people the willies, sure. But in games like Diablo and Guild Wars, necromancers are just another type of caster, albeit ones more focused on life and death.

When a Death Knight in World of Warcraft summons a zombie, an animation just pops up of a generic zombie sprite climbing out of the ground and then runs off. When you animate the dead in D&D... the players and/or Dungeon Master can and probably will do into more graphical detail about just what happens to the corpse of the flayed townsperson lying at your feet and gets raised as a zombie... in addition to describing the reactions of the other horrified townspeople who witness it.

In the past, I have proposed spells that essentially functioned more like that. In D&D terms, the flavor text would be about summoning undead from the Shadowfell.

So it could be an explanation why the Necromancer in D&D is not seen the same way as a Necromancer in Diablo 4.

Earlier you said:

Now if you ... really made it about the circle of life and death, you might get more play on it.

Guess what? That is what the Necromancer is about in Diablo. Necromancers, i.e., the priests of Rathma, are the guardians of the balance for the world of Sanctuary.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Evil things? These things are increasingly moving away from being depicted as "evil things" in games. Maybe things or dark arts that give other people the willies, sure. But in games like Diablo and Guild Wars, necromancers are just another type of caster, albeit ones more focused on life and death.


In the past, I have proposed spells that essentially functioned more like that. In D&D terms, the flavor text would be about summoning undead from the Shadowfell.


Earlier you said:

Guess what? That is what the Necromancer is about in Diablo. Necromancers, i.e., the priests of Rathma, are the guardians of the balance for the world of Sanctuary.

There's a large number of players who play D&D but do not play those specific video games that include Necromancers (myself included). So I personally think it is stretching it to think that the Necromancer has made this tremendous pop culture shift away from being evil sorcerers who raise and control the dead to just now being "another spellcaster". Yes, you're absolutely right that there will be some who treat them that way... but I personally do not feel that is the predominant opinion (although, hey, I could be wrong.) The name 'Necromancer' still has cache as an evil caster type, and indeed the actions of the Necromancer of animating the dead still have connotations of evil for what I believe is a wide swathe of society.

So my point still stands-- this could be (again, not saying it definitely is, but only could be) a reason why Necromancers are not being played as much as PCs in D&D. If you or someone else wishes to believe that it's for a different reason, that's cool. I wouldn't agree, but it's not like either of our opinions on the matter are going to change things anyway.

 

[WanderingMystic]

So back when Chris was talking about the necromancer he mentioned the biggest changes they wanted was getting your undead at lvl 3 when you took the subclass and the ability to have a horde at later levels both of witch I feel would fix the subclass.

As far as necromancers in other classes that is fine and thematically appropriate because the catch all term necromancer is huge. For wizards let them focus on being a minion mancer, for warlocks we have the lean into necrotic damage and fear which is thematically great, for sorcerers I would probably go the old graft rout where you have undead like abilities.

 

[Mistwell]

In a recent video, Jeremy Crawford revealed that the Necromancer subclass not only received low satisfaction ratings for its mechanics but also that the subclass does not get played much, suggesting deeper problems with the subclass. This is one reason why the Necromancer subclass won't be included in the new PHB. So what would make the Necromancer worth playing? What are some practical, feasible solutions for improving the Necromancer subclass to boost its popularity and satisfaction levels?

I think it's theme-oriented that's at issue. Which could be solved.

I'd look to The Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix for inspiration on this one (which is a great series by the way). That series involves some good aligned necromancers who control the dead, righting the wrongs created by evil Necromancers or Free Magic organisms. Their magic does things like raise unthinking dead, influence undead to go where you want them to go, grant speech to the dead, grant independent thought to the dead, control undead, and send people to death, among other things.

I suspect the game is already lightly drawing on some inspiration from the series as the good necromancers used a series of bells to do various necromantic things, and the key necromancy cantrip these days is Toll the Dead ("sound of a dolorous bell fills the air").

I think if they can solve the theme for necromancy to better allow for a good aligned user of necromantic spells, they

 

[Neonchameleon]

Because of that, the Necromancer of 5E just doesn't appeal to me. Because then I'm dealing with the Diablo image of the Necromancer, wading through their foes alongside their Skeletal Soldiers/Frankenstein Golems, which just doesn't mesh with the 5E Necromancer wizard subclass. They (5E Necros) are D6 casters hiding behind the martials. The Diablo Necromancer is more like a D8 Gish type deal with minions.

Bladelock? Undead pact could be tweaked... Or Cleric?

Also: the argument where a Necromancer can be a dark hero or not will probably pop up. (No, Animate Dead is evil and no good person would use it for the greater good. Or is it!?

And this is another reason the necromancer should be a sorcerer. To become a necromancer a wizard needs to have embraced the necromancer lifestyle, intentionally preparing necromantic spells every day (despite most of them being not very good as well as probably not Good). A specialist wizard always has the choice to prepare, or at least to try to learn Fireball instead of Animate Dead, and they can always walk away with each long rest with very minor losses.

By contrast a sorcerer doesn't get to pick their spells freely as an in character decision. Becoming a necromancer may or may not have been a choice. They might have been locked in the cursed tomb, the necromantic energy seeping into their bones in a successful and reckless attempt to become a necromancer or as part of a really dangerous practical joke. Either way the magic is now part of them and although they might be able to avoid casting Animate Dead they get nothing in return and can never truly walk away. And if necromancy is evil? It's still the only tool they have. Do they embrace it or do they let the other alternative happen.

 

[Corinnguard]

And this is another reason the necromancer should be a sorcerer.

Undead Bloodline – d20PFSRD It could happen....

 

[Tonguez]

Necromancer should not be a standard PC option anyway. Necromancers using Animate Dead for the “maintain control on 4 skeletons” is inherently burdensome in combat, and there really arent enough good thematic dead spells either.

They might be viable in a war focused game or where high level PCs get to stuff undead minions in to the halls of their own Bastion

 

[Weiley31]

Bladelock? Undead pact could be tweaked... Or Cleric?

Already ahead of ya on that. The Undead Pact+The Eldritch Armor UA Invocation pretty much makes a Death Knight with Heavy Armor.

Death Domain Cleric is an obvious shoe-in too.

And if necromancy is evil? It's still the only tool they have. Do they embrace it or do they let the other alternative happen.

This book alone introduces the idea of White/Grey/Black Necromancy. (Good/Neutral/Evil paths of Necromancy).

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