A simple, brilliant fix for the Monk

[eamon]

The 8th level monk has an AC of 12. He's going to die. The fighter would be wise to spend more on defense too. I'd like to see Dex 12, Armor of +2, Greatsword +2, gauntlet's of ogre strength +2, Animated heavy shield +1 - which would raise his AC to 24, and his to hit by two ( but if you want max damage output, you'll prefer the flaming enchantment). You can drop the alchemical silver (as it reduces damage by one - get that if the campaign warrants it, otherwise stick to silversheen). If you're really worried about being hit you can drop the gauntlets for rings of deflection and amulets of natural armor. The important point though, is that this character will survive being attacked much better than the monk with fewer hit points and lower AC. I dropped the boots of speed not because they're not useful (they are), but because I image that in many parties the wizard will be able to supply this boost - and to many combatants at a time, to boot.

All in all - I'm not convinced the monk comes close in combat capability @ 8th level.

 

[eamon]

If you really want the boots, something like

Greatsword +1, Full Plate +2, Boots of Speed, Ring of Deflection, Gauntlets of strength +2.

Raging, Hasted AC: 21
Raging, Hasted Attack: +8(bab)+8(str)+1(wf)+1(enh)+1(haste): +19/+19/+14

Compared to the Monk:
AC:12
Attack +16/+16/+16/+11

 

[eamon]

I'm not trying to suggest the monk is useless - just that, in combat capability, he's not even coming close, even after these modifications (and he had to take 4 levels of fighter to even get here, something many monks are lothe to do because it slows their progression in key monk abilities).

One problem with these modifications, is that they're most pronounces at high level - when it's my impression that the monk is most useless at low level. In my games I prefer to do things like grant wholeness of body already at 1st level and removing the flurry penalty which have no impact on high levels, aren't attractive to level-dippers, and make a small difference right away. That done, you can always look to other improvements, but if you want this ability improvement, I'd make sure if can't be placed all in one ablity, just to avoid the kind of issues people are seeing. I don't think it's extremely overpowered, though.

 

[Tyrion]

Thanks for the great analyses, Arkhandus and eamon. I'd just like to add that I've found that fighter-types' deficiency in abilities compared to a fully-blown Strength Monk isn't too significant at later levels; party casters, along with items that permanently grant abilities like flying or invisibility can fairly easily and cheaply emulate most useful Monk abilities.

eamon, you're right that my house rule only really kicks in at later levels, whereas the Monk needs more help at earlier levels. An alternate progression might be better...hmm.

 

[Arkhandus]

.....I probably should've replaced the Boots of Speed on the lower-level versions with Bracers of Armor and such for the Monk, and other stuff for the Fighter (I was just focusing on demonstrating their offensive strength). That 12k GP really cut into their measely 8th-level wealth.

A +2 Flaming greatsword, instead of the +1 Flaming greatsword I used in the level 8 example, would've gone above the general guideline in the DMG for the value of any individual item for a starting PC of any given level (no more than half their wealth should be invested in a single item).

I forgot about adding an Animated Shield for the Fighter. I never use that cheese, and it's worth far more than the +2-enhancement-equivalent that it's listed as. A +3-total-equivalent shield wouldn't have been too much for that build, but the Animated Shield would just be cheesy (9,000 GP and some change for a +5 AC bonus with an Animated +1 Tower Shield, compared to the +2 AC bonus that an 8,000 GP Amulet of Natural Armor or Ring of Protection would yield? And a Ring of Force Shield, which is highly similar in function to an Animated shield but actually takes up a useful slot (one of two ring slots), gives +2 AC at a cost of 8,500 GP.....).

 

[Arkhandus]

Thanks for the great analyses, Arkhandus and eamon. I'd just like to add that I've found that fighter-types' deficiency in abilities compared to a fully-blown Strength Monk isn't too significant at later levels; party casters, along with items that permanently grant abilities like flying or invisibility can fairly easily and cheaply emulate most useful Monk abilities.

I agree that monks are weakest at low levels.

But how is the fact that casters can outperform a Monk any kind of argument that Monks with a free +10 Strength aren't too potent compared to ordinary Fighters? It doesn't change the fact that Monks can do a lot of stuff Fighters can't, even if the Monk is a bit behind on combat ability (a bit). And Monks are still better at fighting spellcasters than Fighters are. My argument is just that the big ability score increase helps out too much at middle and upper levels, making the Monk too close to a pure Fighter in combat ability (while pure Fighters do absolutely nothing well except fight; Monks do a lot more than that).

 

[Arkhandus]

@Arkandus, concerning 20th level stats: Your fighter can use a shield: namely, say, An animated, arrow-deflecting, +5 Heavy Mithral shield

Both barbarian and monk qualify for Melee Weapon Master, and thus would likely take it. And maybe there are other things that could be changed too.

I'm not a fan of 20th level comparisons because it's so hard to be comprehensive, and I never reach that level anyways. maybe a 14th level would be useful?

I made it clear in my opening that I was ignoring non-Core material, except for a few feats in the SRD that came from Deities & Demigods (Power Critical, Hold The Line, and Knock-Down).

The reason is quite simple: adding a bunch of non-core stuff will of course change a lot, but where does it end? Once we start throwing in Psionic feats, Tome of Battle feats and some level dipping for martial maneuvers/stances, PHB 2 feats and alternate class features for yet more optimization, magic items from the MIC, Exalted feats from the BoED, and so on and so forth......where the heck does it end, and how do we determine if there's any real balance difference between the actual classes that are being compared? Most of the difference will be in the less-balanced, less-playtested feats and junk from non-core sources. So it's best to keep it simple for this kind of comparison.

As for the shield, I mentioned later, in the post just before this one, that animated shields are broken and I won't use that kind of cheese for a fair comparison, especially since I'm not throwing in any similar broken cheese on the Monk's behalf (Exalted feats, Vow of Poverty, etc.).

 

[eamon]

I forgot about adding an Animated Shield for the Fighter. I never use that cheese, and it's worth far more than the +2-enhancement-equivalent that it's listed as. A +3-total-equivalent shield wouldn't have been too much for that build, but the Animated Shield would just be cheesy (9,000 GP and some change for a +5 AC bonus with an Animated +1 Tower Shield, compared to the +2 AC bonus that an 8,000 GP Amulet of Natural Armor or Ring of Protection would yield? And a Ring of Force Shield, which is highly similar in function to an Animated shield but actually takes up a useful slot (one of two ring slots), gives +2 AC at a cost of 8,500 GP.....).

An animated shield is powerful. But don't forget, the penalties still apply, you just get free virtual hand ;-). That means, if you take a floating tower shield, then you're also accepting a -2 on to hit, and a max dex of 2. And only fighters are proficient with them. I think a normal shield is more useful. Then a floating shield is 9k for +3 AC, which is 3k per AC and actually more expensive than the 2k for a ring of deflection, say. The nice thing being, that it stacks.

Floating shields are most useful at high level, when you really want all kinds of different AC sources. You may think they're cheese, but they aren't broken, and they are core. It's only fair to compare a monk to a fighter wielding that, because, that's part of the fighter's advantage - that he can wield these things.

 

[eamon]

I made it clear in my opening that I was ignoring non-Core material, except for a few feats in the SRD that came from Deities & Demigods (Power Critical, Hold The Line, and Knock-Down).

The reason is quite simple: adding a bunch of non-core stuff will of course change a lot, but where does it end? Once we start throwing in Psionic feats, Tome of Battle feats and some level dipping for martial maneuvers/stances, PHB 2 feats and alternate class features for yet more optimization, magic items from the MIC, Exalted feats from the BoED, and so on and so forth......where the heck does it end, and how do we determine if there's any real balance difference between the actual classes that are being compared? Most of the difference will be in the less-balanced, less-playtested feats and junk from non-core sources. So it's best to keep it simple for this kind of comparison.

As for the shield, I mentioned later, in the post just before this one, that animated shields are broken and I won't use that kind of cheese for a fair comparison, especially since I'm not throwing in any similar broken cheese on the Monk's behalf (Exalted feats, Vow of Poverty, etc.).

Well, you have a fine reason for using Deities and Demigods stuff, and I like PHB2 things. My campaigns have the house rule that you can choose rules from core+campaign setting+ one splat book of choice. The reasoning behind this being that the worst excesses come from odd combinations of rules that were mostly compared to core material, and not meant to be mutually combined. So instead of Deities & Demigods, PHB2 (an excellent book, I think) is used here. I have no problem with the boost caused by Melee Weapon Mastery, which is why I named it as an interesting option, but I didn't include it in any calculations, because you're right, it's best to keep to core material for clarity.

Since Animated shields are core, they're not comparable to Vow of Poverty. And though they are powerful, they're a valuable addition to a class that's not too powerful in it's own right, at the right moment (namely high levels). An animated shield only really starts to come to it's own at levels 10+, at which point fighters aren't going to become overpowering because of it. You can get greater AC boost by choosing (non-core) CW feat buckler specialization which allows you to use a buckler even while wielding a weapon. That does cost a feat, of course, but I'm just saying, there are other ways of getting mechanically almost the same boost.

A ring of shield is provides one less AC than an animated shield at a comparable but slightly lower cost because it's usable by monk's and wizards and others without shield proficiency. It's a reasonable trade-off. The ring is still valuable to a monk, it's just provides less AC, and I'm sure if you're creative you can make a more powerful version of the ring too ;-), at greater cost, of course - at least, I, as DM, would allow it if a player came up with a reasonable suggestion.

 

[eamon]

I agree that monks are weakest at low levels.

But how is the fact that casters can outperform a Monk any kind of argument that Monks with a free +10 Strength aren't too potent compared to ordinary Fighters? It doesn't change the fact that Monks can do a lot of stuff Fighters can't, even if the Monk is a bit behind on combat ability (a bit). And Monks are still better at fighting spellcasters than Fighters are. My argument is just that the big ability score increase helps out too much at middle and upper levels, making the Monk too close to a pure Fighter in combat ability (while pure Fighters do absolutely nothing well except fight; Monks do a lot more than that).

It all depends on how large that combat difference is (right now: very large, IMHO). And though a fighter only fights, fighting is a big part of D&D. If your party is huge on sneaking, then the monk will have a boost. And fighting, well, it's also how you fight. A fighter can do things like get a spiked chain and go tripping like crazy, and then also know how to disarm later on - not only is his fighting power high, but also, it's flexible. The monk has flexibility in that he's fast, and is resilient to many special attacks owing to SR, saves and poison immunity, but he doesn't have the flexibility of the feats.

A monk with 4 levels of fighter can claim some of the fighters advantages - but since many campaigns (certainly all mine) never exceed 13th level, what's the cost? The loss in special abilities is significant. So for me, the interesting comparison is a monk @ 4th, 8th and 12th level, though it shouldn't be outright broken elsewhere. A monk, even with these additions, satisfies that.

I still think a better solution would somehow boost lower level monks more, but this is a simple fix, and that's also a good thing...