D&D 5E A simple houserule for martial/caster balance.

[Micah Sweet]

Well like I said, I am talking about a hypothetical ruleset, not the one we currently have

Would that hypothetical ruleset have a different implied setting than mainstream D&D then? How do you think you would do it? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[dave2008]

Would that hypothetical ruleset have a different implied setting than mainstream D&D then? How do you think you would do it? I'm genuinely curious.

I'm not sure what the implied default setting is, so I don't know if it would be a change, but I could discuss what I think it would look like.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

@tetrasodium has demonstrated time and time again that in terms of power they are very similar. This is really a case of an ideological paradox where some folks demand that martials have the abilities of casters but absolutely insist they don’t want access to spells (which they have access to already)

Yeah, no he hasn't. He's white roomed some hack and slash to show damage is equal in a way fewer and fewer people play. Non-caster agency (and cool) is severely lacking. For that matter damage is lacking unless all you do is dungeon crawl.

If D&D wants to tell stories bigger than "we kicked in the door and murdered some guys and took their stuff before we kicked in the next door", this divide exists.

Look at the recent Vox Machina animated series to show how neutered they make the casters so it isn't "Pike and Keyleth solve everything... again!"

 

[James Gasik]

It's already apparent that D&D player characters are different from the rest of the people in their world in many respects. Most 5e DM's seem to subscribe to the theory that high level characters and magicians, especially, are quite uncommon.

So why is it such a leap to realize that the player characters are special, and perhaps do have a destiny beyond other mere mortals? That 20th level characters are, essentially, demigods?

Your Fighter is not "an ordinary guy put in an extraordinary situation". He is more than the Everyman Hero. He is John Carter, he is Cuchulainn, he is Corwin of Amber, he is Kevin Matchstick.

 

[Mordhau]

Yeah, no he hasn't. He's white roomed some hack and slash to show damage is equal in a way fewer and fewer people play. Non-caster agency (and cool) is severely lacking. Damage is lacking unless all you do is dungeon crawl.

Yeah the issue here is that damage was never really the issue. Even in 3.5 it wasn't the issue (although the fact that you needed optimisation knowledge to get that damage at high levels 3.5 was).

There's a big versatility gap between casters and martials. I found in the last thread that came up that people seemed to argue at the same time both that this gap didn't exist and at the same time that it wasn't a problem (implying it does).

It may in fact not be an issue for many games, and it is at least questionable to what extent it should be fixed, but this gap exists.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The problem that always come up with this is how does it become possible?

It's one thing to make it become possible by the rules, but what does it mean for it to become possible in the setting? Casters can do extraordinary things because they have magic (in fact we have a whole collection of casters based around the differing ways they have to get access to magic). So how does the Fighter jump really long distances? Is he harnessing his Chi? Is he learning to tap into the inherent magic of the world in his own way (like in Earthdawn), has he become so skilled he is slowly becoming one of the gods?

Basically, the issue here is that the implied setting doesn't really allow for the Fighter to have a clear reason why he can do such extraordinary things. So the implied setting has to change in some way if we want to give the Fighter these capabilities. Yet time and again I see people just wanting to change the mechanics and then complaining bitterly about the unsurprising pushback they get.

They do it because the setting is infused with magic to the point where really there shouldn't even be non-magical player characters. Much like you don't play a game where one character is superman and the other a beat cop. D&D has more magic than any other game I've played save Mage. Hell, even then I think paradox held more people back than D&D's spell slot limit. D&D has simply too much easy player facing magic for the casters and non-casters to be equal. So the solution is either to buff the martials (which is typically not allowed by the grognards) or nerf the casters.

Wizards focus on short bursts of energy and get to mix up their superpowers after a nap. Fighters learn their own martial techniques to augment their physique, reflect spells with their blades, enchant their own arms and armor, etc. Rogues pickpocket someone through their shadow and literally steal someone's identity. A fighter should be fundamentally different from a Paul Blart, market guard with slightly bigger numbers. They live in a world of magic, and are trained specialists.

D&D is fundamentally not a low magic game, and needs to stop pretending it can be with full casters running around.

 

[Mordhau]

They do it because the setting is infused with magic to the point where really there shouldn't even be non-magical player characters. Much like you don't play a game where one character is superman and the other a beat cop. D&D has more magic than any other game I've played save Mage. Hell, even then I think paradox held more people back than D&D's spell slot limit. D&D has simply too much easy player facing magic for the casters and non-casters to be equal. So the solution is either to buff the martials (which is typically not allowed by the grognards) or nerf the casters.

Wizards focus on short bursts of energy and get to mix up their superpowers after a nap. Fighters learn their own martial techniques to augment their physique, reflect spells with their blades, enchant their own arms and armor, etc. Rogues pickpocket someone through their shadow and literally steal someone's identity.

You're confusing is with ought.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They do it because the setting is infused with magic to the point where really there shouldn't even be non-magical player characters. Much like you don't play a game where one character is superman and the other a beat cop. D&D has more magic than any other game I've played save Mage. Hell, even then I think paradox held more people back than D&D's spell slot limit. D&D has simply too much easy player facing magic for the casters and non-casters to be equal. So the solution is either to buff the martials (which is typically not allowed by the grognards) or nerf the casters.

Wizards focus on short bursts of energy and get to mix up their superpowers after a nap. Fighters learn their own martial techniques to augment their physique, reflect spells with their blades, enchant their own arms and armor, etc. Rogues pickpocket someone through their shadow and literally steal someone's identity. A fighter should be fundamentally different from a Paul Blart, market guard with slightly bigger numbers.

And if everyone wanted all characters to be explicitly supernatural,that would be great. But we know that isn't true.

 

[Mordhau]

And if everyone wanted all characters to be explicitly supernatural,that would be great. But we know that isn't true.

But it's also not the setting as we have it. It could be the setting - it's basically how Earthdawn works - but when it comes to D&D it's only one possible interpretation.

 

[James Gasik]

People have been arguing about the gap since the internet was a thing. In old school D&D it rarely came up because it was stupidly hard to play a Wizard, you didn't mind if the Cleric was strong as long as he brought the heals, and offensive spells were largely a joke at higher levels.

Nobody wants to admit that the melee monster they love to play is weak. And, in many games, depending on spell loadout, how the casters are played, and how well they support the melee, you might not even see a problem!

But casters are able to acquire silver bullets that neatly solve problems, and when the caster has their moment to shine, that's something non-magic classes can't do. Whether it's using Fabricate to quickly arm a village with weapons and armor, or using Guards and Wards to lock down a keep to prepare for a siege, or even just making sure the party can get a long rest without having to worry about random monsters or inclement weather- you rarely get that kind of influence over the narrative of the game as a "sword guy".

You can, but this is almost always relegated to skills. A Fighter should be able to train those peasants, a Rogue should be able to create traps to prepare the keep, and a Ranger and his animal buddy should be able to use their knowledge of woodcraft and bestial senses to keep a party safely hidden from threats while they sleep.

But these are usually ad hoc abilities that require skill checks. The caster can usually do the same thing with a single action. And even if it takes 10 minutes or an hour, they still don't have to roll dice. Their spell just works.