D&D 5E A simple houserule for martial/caster balance.

[dave2008]

Well, unless you're a fighter then a 30 foot jump is too far.

No, what I am talking about is really leaning into that distinction. So a 30' jump while in armor is to far at lvl 1-10 (because that is in reality impossible); at 11+ lvl such things become possible. I'm not talking about how the fighter is currently constructed.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The thing is - this feels backwards. The problem being perceived isn't that this character is too good, the perceived problem is that the other players would also like to be that cool. And there's not really a reason to not let them be.

This is why I prefer 13th age for high level games - everyone has fun toys to play with and an opportunity to shine.

Agreed. Have argued vigorously for exactly that. I would also prefer to deal out buffs and generally find the arguments against them unsatisfactory. But it's not like buffs are without problems social contract issues..."Why do they keep getting all the cool stuff from the DM?"

And at the end of the day, maybe no one really cares that much as long as adequate beer and pretzels are provided. That's fine.

The point is groups, players, and dms should be able to have reasonable balance conversations both up and down without worrying about triggering resentment.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Then the question becomes, are your martial players complaining about class balance, or are you? If the latter, you should discuss your concerns with the entire group, not just the people you intend to punish.

And changing the approach to making a giant nerf doesn't make it not a giant nerf. My players wouldn't fall for that.

Ultimately, we're talking about the dm initiating the conversation here, but it doesn't have to be about dealing with a complaint. It can be about fun management.

Everyone is having fun, but you think altering class balance would increase total fun by helping the other players to feel more important to the action? Is the player facing nerfs able to handle the reduction in power?

The DM is constantly making decisions that functionally buff and nerf different characters by virtue of the adventures they choose to run, and the enemies they employ in their encounters, the conditions under which those encounters occur, the tactics those enemies use, and the treasure that gets awarded.

Making an explicit change to class mechanics is certainly a less subtle version of this process, but it is more transparent.

 

[TheSword]

Maybe so, but following that up with, "my solution is to remove all your spells after 3rd level. You don't get those anymore. Bask in the knowledge that your character is no longer unfair" is a no-go with anyone I have ever gamed with.

Just ignore the idea. It’s a solution looking for a problem the same as a lot of the ‘design’ tinkering is to try and prevent a caster martial difference (not disparity) that is actually a feature of the game not a flaw.

@tetrasodium has demonstrated time and time again that in terms of power they are very similar. This is really a case of an ideological paradox where some folks demand that martials have the abilities of casters but absolutely insist they don’t want access to spells (which they have access to already)

Nobody in this debate is going to change their mind. It’s fine to like 6E or want to put house rules if that’s the style you like but that style would definitely not satisfy a lot of players as you said earlier @Micah Sweet, me included.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Close, like Chicago to LA.

We want martials to have the flexibility and variety of martials without making them just another sad wizard copy or light them up with items they need a wizard to make for them.

 

[Undrave]

Oh I remember, but my groups never adopted Combat and Tactics; we saw things like that and were like, nah. But builds like that would quickly run into problems in 2e when you face monsters that need magic weapons to hit- where are you going to get two dozen magical darts?

Just find two dozen pixies with short swords

 

[FrogReaver]

Just ignore the idea. It’s a solution looking for a problem the same as a lot of the ‘design’ tinkering is to try and prevent a caster martial difference (not disparity) that is actually a feature of the game not a flaw.

@tetrasodium has demonstrated time and time again that in terms of power they are very similar. This is really a case of an ideological paradox where some folks demand that martials have the abilities of casters but absolutely insist they don’t want access to spells (which they have access to already)

Nobody in this debate is going to change their mind. It’s fine to like 6E or want to put house rules if that’s the style you like but that style would definitely not satisfy a lot of players as you said earlier @Micah Sweet, me included.

That’s reasonable. I did title the thread ‘a houserule’ after all.

I think more groups than admit have a martial/caster problem in tier 3 and 4 provided they reach those levels. But ultimately you are right, if you find no value in the houserule then don’t run it.

I’d add that no one has demonstrated casters and martials are balanced in the late game. It can’t be done. Casters can do almost everything, including outdamage most martials.

 

[Mordhau]

No, what I am talking about is really leaning into that distinction. So a 30' jump while in armor is to far at lvl 1-10 (because that is in reality impossible); at 11+ lvl such things become possible. I'm not talking about how the fighter is currently constructed.

The problem that always come up with this is how does it become possible?

It's one thing to make it become possible by the rules, but what does it mean for it to become possible in the setting? Casters can do extraordinary things because they have magic (in fact we have a whole collection of casters based around the differing ways they have to get access to magic). So how does the Fighter jump really long distances? Is he harnessing his Chi? Is he learning to tap into the inherent magic of the world in his own way (like in Earthdawn), has he become so skilled he is slowly becoming one of the gods?

Basically, the issue here is that the implied setting doesn't really allow for the Fighter to have a clear reason why he can do such extraordinary things. So the implied setting has to change in some way if we want to give the Fighter these capabilities. Yet time and again I see people just wanting to change the mechanics and then complaining bitterly about the unsurprising pushback they get.

 

[Mordhau]

delete

 

[dave2008]

The problem that always come up with this is how does it become possible?

It's one thing to make it become possible by the rules, but what does it mean for it to become possible in the setting? Casters can do extraordinary things because they have magic (in fact we have a whole collection of casters based around the differing ways they have to get access to magic). So how does the Fighter jump really long distances? Is he harnessing his Chi? Is he learning to tap into the inherent magic of the world in his own way (like in Earthdawn), has he become so skilled he is slowly becoming one of the gods?

Basically, the issue here is that the implied setting doesn't really allow for the Fighter to have a clear reason why he can do such extraordinary things. So the implied setting has to change in some way if we want to give the Fighter these capabilities. Yet time and again I see people just wanting to change the mechanics and then complaining bitterly about the unsurprising pushback they get.

Well like I said, I am talking about a hypothetical ruleset, not the one we currently have