D&D 5E A Slower Caster Spell Progression and other Suggestions

[DND_Reborn]

I think a question for any kind of caster rule change is how different you want magic-user tropes to look within in the setting. Rolling back slots and spells available means that casters still feel like casters, just less capable. Depending on the players, that can easily be a good thing or a bad thing.

(bold added)
I wasn't out to change the feel of casters, just nip their power-level or capability to bring it more in line with martials and to have spells be less prevalent in the game. For our group, it is a good thing.

Personally, if the DM is going to make changes, I'd rather them make qualitative changes, so that my options feel different in play; not an option I had previously but that they've chosen to make weaker.

Not a bad goal either, just not what I was going after.

That's why I like rules changes like using warlock as the only caster, or changing spell lists around (remember that?), or only using sidekick classes. Lowering power levels feels better if it's in the service of providing an entirely different experience than baseline D&D.

(bold added)

Many posters seem to like the Warlock as casters-template. To me it seem too restricted, but that is but my preference. And I've toyed around with running a game with JUST sidekick classes for the PCs, and my group wouldn't mind trying it to see out it goes, but we haven't gotten around to it yet.

As for the bolded part, Heck YES! You should see our spell lists for our games now, only about 35% of the spells have overlap (so reducing sameyness) and spells over 5th level are completely unique in who gets which spell.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I agree. I was thinking about including a "spellcasting check" for spells that don't require an attack roll in the OP. But what about spells that allow saves instead? Requiring it for those would be like double-rolling: 1) a roll to cast the spell, 2) a roll to resist it.

Take the spell Fireball. As things stand it always, and without exception when there aren't counter-measures (like counterspells and anti-magic fields) produces a 20ft radius ball of fire but it allows a saving throw.

Fireball also causes problems in other ways; I can imagine a Blindness spell ending up on a gradient with a single roll (with results including fizzling and the caster ending up blinded) but fireball and other such AoE spells don't really have this sort of backlash as possible.

Another mechanic I like is spell drain instead of spell slots, then you don't have guaranteed spells per day. Once your drain fails, you'd be done until you could rest maybe?

I'd be interested in 5e exploring some of the 13th Age spells that you could recover on a short rest or even were leveled but not expended on casting (although significantly less powerful than other spells of their level)

 

[nevin]

My preferred fixes for casters would include:

1) Eliminate all cantrips. Of the many things in 5E that I dislike, spammable cantrips are at the very top of the list.

2) Increase the number of low level spells casters start with. For example, at first level a caster would have four or five first level spell slots available per day. I would do this for first and second level spells.

3) Cap spells to no higher than 7th level spells. Remember when the Cleric spell list only went up to 7th level spells? Go back to that for all casters. Thus, getting rid of world altering spells like Wish which should only be available as one time consumable items IMO.

4) Slow down the progression of attainment for the next spell level much as the OP has suggested. That is a 7th (or even 8 or 9th) level caster would only just be getting access to third level spell slots. An (incomplete) table of spell progression might look something like...

	1	2	3	4	5	6	7
Level 1	4
Level 6	7	4
Level 11	7	5	2	1
Level 16	7	5	3	3	1
Level 20	7	5	3	3	3	2	1

When the cleric list capped at 7 they had less spells as they leveled but all bonus spells for wisdom were granted immediately and 7th level spells were things like miracle.

 

[DND_Reborn]

When the cleric list capped at 7 they had less spells as they leveled but all bonus spells for wisdom were granted immediately and 7th level spells were things like miracle.

Well, they were really performing "miracles" much sooner with Cure Blindness/Deafness... And even Raise Dead was only 5th level.

IMO this is part of the problem with D&D at this point. Spells of 3rd to 5th levels are basically considered commonplace, which makes them feel less powerful in some ways. So, it becomes a sort of escalation issue.

 

[Blue]

EDIT: Ooops, didn't realize this was a necro'd thread.

Just to open to a related but different idea: let go of the idea of keeping low level slots.

Idea stolen from 13th Age, but perhaps total number of slots grows very slowly, but we lose lower level slots. So a 9th level caster it might be 0x 1st, 1x 2nd, 3x 3rd, 2x 4th 1x 5th - half the total number of slots, but keeping up with the expected progression. We wouldn't have any 1st level slots, but can still cast those spells with higher level slots.

Keeps proliferation of Shield, Bless, and other low-level but well-scaling spells in check. Also helps prevent nova-ing all the time in if we run fewer encounters per day.

 

[Cruentus]

I think the idea of lowering the number of available spells is a good one. Especially if the goal is to both balance casters with martials, and to have "lower level" magic be powerful at mid levels. I prefer to play and DM in "lower magic" settings. What that means is that someone throwing around fireballs is going to raise eyebrows, and be seen my most as "amazing magic." Forget stuff like wall of stone and forcecage and simulacrum. Kings would seek that person out and try to entice them to come to their court, or others would hunt them down as dangerous.

Now, if that happens at 7th, rather than 5th, then that fireball is a bigger deal.

I do wonder, though, is part of the problem with "magic" being that it is an answer to everything? Would there be any benefit to creating a smaller list of spells? Do we need 200+ spells? If a caster can only cast, say 14, do they need a menu of hundreds?

I'm still working out concepts for using spell points as in the DMG optional magic section, with perhaps assigning fewer points if I really wanted to make a "lower magic" setting.

Another thing I've played with is increasing the wizard HD (why wouldn't all humans/humanoids have a d10 for hp anyway?), and then having them spend those HP to cast spells in lieu of external points.

With both, I've also toyed with always using "wild magic" for every spell cast. Just to up the variability.

 

[Krachek]

Do the nerf is applied to any caster including half caster, and 1/3 caster like the Ek?
and what to do with Warlock?

 

[DEFCON 1]

At the end of the day it's probably easier to just narrow down and tighten up the individual spell lists for each spellcasting class than it is to try and re-work the entire system so that the "too powerful" spells get knocked back.

As has been said, there are "miraculous" types of magic at most spell levels of the game. So if you really want to tone it all down... just make spell lists of like 8 spells per level and hand-select which eight spells are the most acceptable for a lower-powered magic system. I mean after all... that's pretty much how many spells were available to select from in in the B/X boxes... eight rather meh spells.

So your Cleric 1st level spell list might be:

Command
Create or Destroy Water
Detect Evil and Good
Healing Word
Protection From Evil and Good
Purify Food and Drink
Sanctuary
Shield of Faith

You remove the combat spells and the powerful buffs like Bless and you go back to a time where magic was assistant to your day and not overpowering.

Cleric 2nd level might be:

Augury
Calm Emotions
Continual Flame
Hold Person
Prayer of Healing
Silence
Warding Bond
Zone of Truth

Again, you take out the spells that can eliminate injuries received from creatures like Lesser Restoration, the more powerful attack spells like Blindness/Deafness, and ones that are overlapping what other classes are there for like Find Traps and Locate Object (more of a Wizard spell.) You keep doing this for all the classes and you will end up with a much more subtle magic system that isn't just masses of things that go boom.

Just an idea.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

For cantrip spamming, I would suggest creating wands of rechargable cantrips. Probably you can cast each cantrip once per day, but if you have a wand, you can imbue them with that one slot.
That way you can disarm a caster as you can do with a martial.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I just like putting cantrips on a recharge mechanic, like breath weapons. You can count on always having them when a fight starts for the most part, but you don't know when they'll be available again.