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A solution to the "core books sell" problem?

Maybe it doesn't matter for you, but it surely matter for those of us who still believe that it's good for the game to have major revisions after a cycle of rules releases.

I wasn't really aiming to guess what is good for the customers or the game, or even the brand, but primarily what is good for the next annual profit report.
Which I believe is the main issue. WotC is owned by a very large public company. It's a big machine that has only the single purpose of multiplying the shareholders investments. If customers have fun with the profit it's a coincidental side effect and only relevant in so much, that people tend to favor buying products that they consider satisfactory. Customer satisfaction is only a neccessary tool to optimize profits, not the goal of the company. And even if the employees at WotC want to make a product that is fun and high quality, it is not their descision to make.

A public company can not take part in what is essentially a communal hobby.
 

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Color me as someone who is still completely in the dark as to why having multiple versions of D&D in the world is a bad thing for WotC or the marketplace. No one has been able to articulate a satisfactory reason why.

The reasons given are either entirely personal to that particular player...

...either they do not want to have to spend more money to buy a new game, or
...they can't find people to play their preferred version of D&D because everyone around them are switching to a new edition.

But neither of those reasons have any bearing on WotC or the marketplace. Because in the first instance... it means WotC's already gotten money from that person previously, and there will always be someone else to try the game or return to the game to take that person's place... and in the second instance... it means that they're making money off of all the people around that person who just don't care that it's a new edition they are switching to, and want to play it anyway.

Or the other reason given by the people is that it "splits the gaming community".

But so what? The RPG audience has always been split. For decades. Across all manner of RPGs. It's nothing new. It's nothing to fear. But for some reason... when we point out that there's a goodly amount of gamers out there who are exclusive to Shadowrun, or World of Darkness, or GURPS, or any other game, and they don't play D&D AT ALL... it's no big deal. But as soon as it gets mentioned that players are playing any other edition of D&D, all of a sudden it's for whom the bell tolls. It's the downfall of the game. As though the only way for D&D to survive is we all sit in one big, happy D&D circle playing the same single edition forever and ever and ever. I mean hell... how many more people do we need to see on these boards make the completely unfounded claim that if the new edition of D&D "doesn't sell", then Hasbro's going to put it on the shelf for a decade? That's a complete bullcrap statement with no basis in actual fact... made by a person who has no knowledge of the situation and is saying it merely because they themselves don't want to buy a new game, and this kind of ridiculous hyperbole is the only way they can attempt to get across to WotC that "they mean it!" They're serious! Don't make a new game, cause they're not gonna buy it!

But nobody over there cares. Because others will. They always will. They will buy a new game. They might not play that same game for 30+ years like some people out there to with like AD&D... or heck, might not play it at all after buying it. But it doesn't matter. Because people buy it anyway. Because believe it or not... buying roleplaying games is fun. Reading roleplaying games is fun. Playing roleplaying games is fun. And even though some people have a stick up their butt about seeing a new D&D take over the public's consciousness from their precious, preferred version... doesn't mean WotC's going to change their publishing methods to keep those people happy. Not when the rest of the "gaming community" is right there to pick up that person's slack.
 

My impression from the various blog posts and panels is that the goal now is to nurture the D&D brand for use across mediums. That's why so much work is being done on world bibles and monster descriptions.

It follows, then, that the RPG will become a more perennial product, slowly expanding, intended to be used as the model for the franchise. Edition cycles are anathema to that.

I expect 5e to last much longer, expand more slowly, and to receive only minor updates as the years go on. The RPG will sustain itself on adventure and setting content, while the real profits are made on novels, movies, videogames, board games, TV shows, and anywhere else the brand can be applied successfully. The key to that is a strong, stable core RPG product.
 

Color me as someone who is still completely in the dark as to why having multiple versions of D&D in the world is a bad thing for WotC or the marketplace. No one has been able to articulate a satisfactory reason why.

The reasons given are either entirely personal to that particular player...

...either they do not want to have to spend more money to buy a new game, or
...they can't find people to play their preferred version of D&D because everyone around them are switching to a new edition.

But neither of those reasons have any bearing on WotC or the marketplace. Because in the first instance... it means WotC's already gotten money from that person previously, and there will always be someone else to try the game or return to the game to take that person's place... and in the second instance... it means that they're making money off of all the people around that person who just don't care that it's a new edition they are switching to, and want to play it anyway.

Or the other reason given by the people is that it "splits the gaming community".

But so what? The RPG audience has always been split. For decades. Across all manner of RPGs. It's nothing new. It's nothing to fear. But for some reason... when we point out that there's a goodly amount of gamers out there who are exclusive to Shadowrun, or World of Darkness, or GURPS, or any other game, and they don't play D&D AT ALL... it's no big deal. But as soon as it gets mentioned that players are playing any other edition of D&D, all of a sudden it's for whom the bell tolls. It's the downfall of the game. As though the only way for D&D to survive is we all sit in one big, happy D&D circle playing the same single edition forever and ever and ever. I mean hell... how many more people do we need to see on these boards make the completely unfounded claim that if the new edition of D&D "doesn't sell", then Hasbro's going to put it on the shelf for a decade? That's a complete bullcrap statement with no basis in actual fact... made by a person who has no knowledge of the situation and is saying it merely because they themselves don't want to buy a new game, and this kind of ridiculous hyperbole is the only way they can attempt to get across to WotC that "they mean it!" They're serious! Don't make a new game, cause they're not gonna buy it!

But nobody over there cares. Because others will. They always will. They will buy a new game. They might not play that same game for 30+ years like some people out there to with like AD&D... or heck, might not play it at all after buying it. But it doesn't matter. Because people buy it anyway. Because believe it or not... buying roleplaying games is fun. Reading roleplaying games is fun. Playing roleplaying games is fun. And even though some people have a stick up their butt about seeing a new D&D take over the public's consciousness from their precious, preferred version... doesn't mean WotC's going to change their publishing methods to keep those people happy. Not when the rest of the "gaming community" is right there to pick up that person's slack.


A popular D&D edition makes it easy to find players that is why. 10 years ago I had a waiting list of players to pick from for 3.5, now it is hard to find a single player willing to play anything D&D related as 4E tanked hard and the last D&Ders are playing Pathfinder locally except for myself running OSR games.

Also large print cycles= cheap books. 3.0 for example was only $20 for each core book and 3rd ed was very popular and still is. Those $20 books in 2000 were the same price as the PHB in 1989 for 2nd ed. Probably resulted in a huge amount of people getting 3rd ed because it was cheap. More people playing= easier to find players. I spent $20 for example on ACKs, and last night I spent $32 on the 3 core books for Castles and Crusades. WoTC wants $17 for a PDF of Assault on Dragonspear Castle.

If I buy a retroclone and hat it I am $10 out of pocket or so maybe $20. I bought the 4E books here for $40 each roughly (NZ is expensive for RPGs) so I am $120 out of pocket and selling them second hand is not a great plan.
 

Maybe 4E will get re-christened with its own clone one day.

.....umm. Dr. Evil, that too, has already happened. 13th Age was released earlier this year.

I wasn't really aiming to guess what is good for the customers or the game, or even the brand, but primarily what is good for the next annual profit report.
Which I believe is the main issue. WotC is owned by a very large public company. It's a big machine that has only the single purpose of multiplying the shareholders investments. If customers have fun with the profit it's a coincidental side effect and only relevant in so much, that people tend to favor buying products that they consider satisfactory. Customer satisfaction is only a neccessary tool to optimize profits, not the goal of the company. And even if the employees at WotC want to make a product that is fun and high quality, it is not their descision to make.

A public company can not take part in what is essentially a communal hobby.

Here we get to the heart of the matter. D&D is in the hands of a company for which good sales are not enough. X amount of cash must be squeezed from the brand or it isn't worth putting any resources bening it. Popular brand + niche hobby x revenue demand = edition treadmill. The reason we aren't getting a slew of all new games from WOTC is brand identity. The company doesn't care if the game design is good or crap. The important question is, does it have a built-in audience that we can capitalize on? This is the reason that we have a better chance of seeing a crappy game with Hunger Games on the cover than a well designed game that no one has heard of. When a large company gets ahold of ANYTHING entertainment related then EVERY concern is subordinate to the dollar.

This is why the industry and the hobby are NOT one and the same, and why whats good for one might not be the best for the other.
 

A popular D&D edition makes it easy to find players that is why. 10 years ago I had a waiting list of players to pick from for 3.5, now it is hard to find a single player willing to play anything D&D related as 4E tanked hard and the last D&Ders are playing Pathfinder locally except for myself running OSR games.

Also large print cycles= cheap books. 3.0 for example was only $20 for each core book and 3rd ed was very popular and still is. Those $20 books in 2000 were the same price as the PHB in 1989 for 2nd ed. Probably resulted in a huge amount of people getting 3rd ed because it was cheap. More people playing= easier to find players. I spent $20 for example on ACKs, and last night I spent $32 on the 3 core books for Castles and Crusades. WoTC wants $17 for a PDF of Assault on Dragonspear Castle.

If I buy a retroclone and hat it I am $10 out of pocket or so maybe $20. I bought the 4E books here for $40 each roughly (NZ is expensive for RPGs) so I am $120 out of pocket and selling them second hand is not a great plan.

You just proved my point. Your reasons are about you, not about WotC.
 

While his words don't need to be taken as absolute truth, Mark Rosewater (head designer of MtG) once said that Hasbro has little to no direct input in the way WotC runs the properties under its belt. They do have influence, but not as much as all of us would want it to be each time the D&D team does something we deem bad for the game.

Cheers,
 


Well splintering your own player base, having an ediiton tank and scaring off over half your player base to clones of various types doesn't seem to be a good move.

Again... what does "splintering your own player base" mean? It means nothing. People are playing clones or other version of D&D or other RPGs altogether. So what? They made a whole heap of money in the four years WotC published 4E books... far from "tanking" as you say (using whatever bizarre definition you have for "tanking".) And now that they made their money from 4E... they're going to be making their money from 5E in perhaps six months to a year's time.

Once more, what is the problem by WotC's (not Zardnaar's) way of thinking? If you sell books... you are doing it right.
 

Again... what does "splintering your own player base" mean? It means nothing. People are playing clones or other version of D&D or other RPGs altogether. So what? They made a whole heap of money in the four years WotC published 4E books... far from "tanking" as you say (using whatever bizarre definition you have for "tanking".) And now that they made their money from 4E... they're going to be making their money from 5E in perhaps six months to a year's time.

Once more, what is the problem by WotC's (not Zardnaar's) way of thinking? If you sell books... you are doing it right.

They were not selling books was the problem. In 40 yeas of D&D there has never been a cap of 2 years of no new product being available for sale.That includes when TSR went under anfd was bought out by WoTC where the disruption was for 6 months or so IIRC.

Sure you can buy reprints but it is not really new product. Having stated in the 4E PHB that this was the future of D&D for 10 years and having the next edition announced 3.5 years later is unprecedented in D&D history along with creating a rival that outsold you using the previous edition. With previous edition cycles there has been bad blood of course but not at this scale and not having new product for 2 years is unprecedented.

They have no product to sell because they are not making any new product and the reason for that is 4E. 4E could not sustain itself and even essentials was a desperate attempt to lure players back after Mearls admitted they drove away their own player base.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_271/8109-Red-Box-Renaissance
 

Into the Woods

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